John Cardone
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Kristi: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the CAPE podcast. CAPE standing for the Child Abuse Prevention and Education podcast. My name is Christy McVie and I am an ex West Australian police officer who spent 10 years with the police where I was trained as a specialist child interviewer and a child abuse detective. This podcast is all about sharing what I learned, saw and knew whilst investigating child sexual abuse in the police force.
It is also about sharing the knowledge that I gained in that time that helped me with my own parenting of my then two year old daughter. My mission is to help share my knowledge and to help you in your role as parents to keep your kids safe along with guest experts in the field of child abuse prevention and education, both in person and online.
Thank you so much for joining in on the fight to prevent child sexual abuse. Your kids will thank you for it.
Hello, and welcome back to the Cape podcast. My goodness, we're already halfway through the year. And today I am with John Cardamone. [00:01:00] Now it's interesting, right? Because I have obviously, you know, I'm past episode 30 now on the podcast. And I've managed to like, hassle all my friends and ask all of these people for interviews.
And I got to the point where I was like, I don't know who else I can talk to. So I put out a call out on LinkedIn, which was an amazing response. And John put his hand up and said, Hey, I'd love to be on the podcast. So thank you so much, John, for you know, obviously. Putting your hand up and saying that you'd love to be on the podcast because otherwise they'd have to listen to me talking about stuff all on my own.
How are you, John? How are you doing?
John: I'm well, and I would just like to say thank you for providing the opportunity for people like myself to, to share the story because I think we want to get to a point where we continue to raise awareness. But I think the other important part is, is the education side.
Kristi: Yeah. Thank you so much. Now, John, you're a parent, you're an [00:02:00] advocate, you're a survivor, you're an educator, you're, you're very much like myself in that we, we have the same opinion, you know, the only way we can stop it is to talk about it and to, and that's how we're going to prevent it. So for my, for the listeners of the podcast, would you be able to just share a bit about your story and, and whatever you want to tell us about you?
John: Yeah, so so I guess my story goes all the way back when I was six years old. I'm 39 now born and bred in Melbourne Australia Victoria, I should say. Well, it is Australia, but if you have any international listeners yeah, so when I was six years old, that's when My sexual abuse happened, however, I think it's really important to share that you know, I was a fairly happy boy really active, had a thirst to play and always talking lots of friends, made friends easily and still have, have my childhood friendships which I'm very lucky to have really connected with my family, had a [00:03:00] clear and, you know a safe sense of belonging within my family unit and I think that's really important to share because sometimes I think we feel that this sort of stuff only happens to, to people that are, whether it's going through poverty divorce, separation, whatever it might be, but I'm certainly, Was just a normal active boy that had a deep dark secret that I was forced to hold and more than happy to go into that.
If you, if you're,
Kristi: if you're okay too, sure.
John: Yeah. Yeah. So, and I guess with that perpetrators use that as a strategy to hold the deep dark secret especially with young, young Children because of. We we're all developing, the brain's still developing and understanding what's right and what's wrong.
And if you, if you're I guess I was told that if I did tell anyone, there would be threats of violence against myself and some family members. So, at a six. pretty [00:04:00] scary. So it took me two years to finally have the courage to tell my mom
Kristi: and I'm
John: really lucky and fortunate that she believed me right away.
And I, I'm a big believer that when my healing journey began understanding a little bit more about trauma. Yeah, if, if if she didn't believe me, I think there would have been more added trauma on top of that
Kristi: for sure, for sure. And that's what we hear from survivors all the time about, you know, when they tell that first person, regardless of how long it takes to get to the point of, of disclosing to someone for the first time, the reaction of that first person matters a lot.
John: It really, it really does because I, I, I have memories that without a blink of an eye I was believed and that's when the police were called. I'm kind of new to this space, this space of talking about it and sharing my story but I keep hearing that unfortunately there's a lot of children that are not [00:05:00] believed and I just find that horrific and really terrible and, and really sad because I keep hearing that, not that it's worse than the actual abuse, but it can really send children on, on a different track to what they deserve and it's not their fault.
So I think a big thing for your listeners, if there is a disclosure is to absolute believe all children, because although children do have great imaginations, it's really hard to make up a story like that.
Kristi: Oh, for sure. And in my experience, interviewing children in the police, you know, it was very rare look, I could count on one hand, the amount of times that we were able to say this, this isn't actually, we don't believe this actually happened.
Less than you know, one hand. So, you know, that's hundreds of children I interviewed and. Children don't make things like this up, especially young children. So if you don't mind going [00:06:00] into it and it's okay if you don't want to, but who was your perpetrator? Like who was the, who, how, who, how were they known to you?
John: Yeah. So it was within the family unit, my uncle. And I guess another important point is that perpetrators don't just groom children, but they groom parents, they groom trusted adults, and I guess their main aim is to gain access to that child. So and one way they do that is by building trust. So from my memory, I remember my perpetrator used to take me for some reason, I just remember this so clearly.
He used to take me going yabbing,
And I remember, you know, trying to catch the net. So using the net to, to, to catch these things, and I'm not sure why I remember that, but I think it's really important that perpetrators are really, it's a great skill of theirs to build connection. I'm all about building, building connection, but we need to teach our children what appropriate and safe connections are because [00:07:00] they're very smart and they're just trying to fulfill their, their needs.
Horrible, disgusting, unspeakable need another really important point that your listeners need to know that perpetrators will groom trusted adults and parents to gain access to children. And that's exactly what happened to me. And from there, it's, it's not that it's easy, but it's a lot easier once that groundwork is, is built.
Kristi: Yeah. It's the foundations. Foundations so that they can gain access and that everything they say is believed. So there's no, no issues with gaining access. There's no issues with, Hey, let's go yabbing. I'm going to take John yabbing and I'm going to have him for a sleepover, or I'm going to do this, or I'm going to do that because all, because the parents think, Oh, he he's taken an interest in our son.
He's, he's our son. You know, he's just, One of our safer adults in our, my son's life, you know, and you know, it's no one's fault other than the perpetrators that, that happens. But [00:08:00] you're right. Like we really need to know what is safe and appropriate behaviors. And. Connections. And I love that language, actually.
John: And the other thing too, I think it's a bit old school is that stranger danger. And what I'm wanting people to understand that, yes, there's absolutely we need to be aware of that, but some of, some of the most dangerous people are part of our family. So instead of, In Stranger Danger, some of the strangers are the most caring and supportive people.
I mean, we're both strangers to someone. Yes. It's changing that language to tricky strangers. Yeah. And children need to be educated on not Stranger Danger because if they get lost in a shopping center, they're They need to know that, what is a safe stranger? And so for example, if I take in my I took my son and daughter to the football, to the football footy.
And if, I said, if you get lost, you need to find a stranger in a red jacket. So instead [00:09:00] of me saying, oh, it's a stranger danger, there's a hundred thousand strangers there. They need to be educated and told anywhere they go out to a train station, what kind of strangers they need to find, because some of them are the most safe people and some of our family members are most some of them are really dangerous.
So that's really important.
Kristi: Yes, that's so true. And great again, great language because and great that you, you know, I get criticized on social media sometimes for pointing out that, you know, family members, we can't just automatically trust them because they're actually in our family because we don't actually know their motivations, thoughts, and feelings underneath the mask that they wear.
Right. And you know, and I talk about the fact that we need to be, you know, More on the lookout for those tricky behaviors and those tricky people. And it doesn't matter who they are. They can be strangers. They can be other people, but it's more likely going to be someone in your family. And I love how you also [00:10:00] mentioned, you know, a stranger in a red jacket, a stranger in a Fleurie jacket, or, you know, someone who has rail on their, on their shirt or wherever you are, because I also believe we need to whilst we're educating our kids from.
From as little as two, we can start talking about body safety and all of those lessons. But whilst we're doing that, we need to be helping our children understand how they can get help when they need it. You know, things like scenarios that, you know, what could kids do if. You know, what could kids do if they get, they can't find mum or dad and they're at the footy, for instance, and then that's when you can help them come up to the understanding that, Oh, we'll see that person in that red jacket.
They're there to help us, you know, and it's not, it's not scaring them. It's actually empowering
John: them. Absolutely. And I think we forget, like, so I work in schools and, and schools do an amazing job at teaching maths, reading and writing, and it's repeated and reinforced, [00:11:00] but as parents or trusted adults, it's our responsibility to be teaching our children repeatedly of what about their private body parts and then not to be touched and what to do if they are touched they need a simple process Because at the end of the day it's not any organization's responsibility.
Well, they absolutely play, play a big part.
Kristi: Yes.
John: I understand that it is difficult and you don't know what you don't know. So it's up to people like myself and you to, to educate and provide resources. To families if, if they don't know how to have that conversation because at the end of the day it's easy for us because we've been educated in this field and we know how important it is.
Kristi: Yes.
John: So, yeah, this is just a small part of trying to reach people that need that education.
Kristi: Yeah, totally. Can I ask about your perpetrator? So he was your uncle, you were six at the time that you remember. So with regards to and you said he groomed your [00:12:00] family. So he was a trusted adult within your family, et cetera.
And that is a story I hear a lot of tell me about what made it stop because, you know, you don't have to go into detail, but with regards to how he abused you and did your parents have conversations with you about this stuff before or after? How did you know to tell your mom? All of that, all of that. Try and tell me all of that. Cause that's what I'm understanding. Sorry, that was a really convoluted question people. I really apologize.
John: It's a tricky, tricky topic.
And so I totally get it, but no, I understand your question or questions. No, I didn't have any, any education. And I think a lot of children back in the late eighties, early nineties, there wouldn't have been a lot of education through schools or, you know, my, my My family certainly didn't have, you know, have that education around being body safe.
I remember telling my mum it [00:13:00] took me a few years. And I remember I was just continuously crying because I think part of it was that the release of just telling someone, but also feeling that making sure that someone believes me and I'm lucky, although my mom didn't have any education around that area for her to act protectively right away.
Yeah. And for me, And that was, and I was put to a stop so I didn't have to see the perpetrator ever again. Yeah. Which I understand that's something. Yes, absolutely. So yes, as I was saying being believed right away from my mum. And the police were called and that was all dealt with that, that was, again, my biggest healer.
Now that I look back and understand about trauma and post trauma growth I think being believed is certainly been the biggest factor in my transformation. Did I answer all of the questions that you asked?
Kristi: I was more thinking, so, so between [00:14:00] six and eight, were you being abused between six and eight by the perpetrator until you came and told your mum?
Okay. Yeah. So sometimes when I was interviewing kids, it very rarely only happens once, right? So, And most of the time, the memory is a really interesting thing with regards to remembering or trauma or when you're abused, because you might remember the first and you might remember the last, but you know, but a lot of the stuff in between sort of melds together, especially if it happens regularly and doesn't happen, you know, so I was just kind of thinking, well, I was trying to piece together how long your abuse happened, How it stopped and how it stopped was because you told your mom and she contacted police.
Is that right?
John: Yeah.
Kristi: Yeah.
John: Yeah. And in between that, I have, I have a really good memory trying to tell my older brother at different stages.
Kristi: Yeah.
John: Like I, I honestly feel the feeling where I was and how I was trying to tell him. And I just, I just, I don't know, [00:15:00] I still don't understand how the brain works.
Yeah. I just, I just don't understand why I wasn't able to get the words out. I mean, I understand as an educated adult now, but, yeah, I just, I just remember I tried to tell him a few times when we had an opportunity that we're just mucking around and playing, and I remember, not remember my actual thought process, but remember trying to tell him, but the words just, just wouldn't come out.
Kristi: My thoughts with that is, well, With regards to, you know, it's, it's a hard, hard thing to tell people, even as, even as an educated adult. Now it's a hard thing to talk about and therefore, you know, expect any child, every child, it's not easy and it's never going to be easier. I mean, I think we might've. I don't know if you went and saw that post, we might have connected over, you know, how disclosing is one of the hardest things anyone can do, let alone a child, which only gets usually one shot at it with police, you know, and there's so many factors [00:16:00] against children when they want to tell someone so many factors.
And so, you know, you had. You know, very lucky circumstances that you had, you know, a mum who was protective, who believed you, who took the right you know, actions afterwards. It's interesting that you mentioned your brother because was, was it just you that was a victim of your uncle or were there more children that were victims?
John: Look that's something that I don't know and yeah, I hope, I hope I was the only one to be honest with you, but it's something that we may never find out,
Kristi: It
John: happened so long ago so we can only hope, yeah, like, again, it's something that hopefully the system was good enough to put a stop to it.
But we know back in the early eighties and nineties, we've certainly come a long way. I still think we have a really long way to go in, in terms of how we approach these unspeakable acts towards children or for any, [00:17:00] any, any person really. I mean, we were speaking about children, but also happens to adults, unfortunately.
So
Kristi: very much so. Yeah. Thank
John: you.
Kristi: And so you mentioned when we were talking before that you are new to talking about this, right? So I guess, and one of the things that I was, I was presenting to some chaplains, school chaplains yesterday, and I was talking about trauma and I was talking about how as adults, we sometimes suppress everything and we don't talk about it.
We don't tell our future partners. We don't say anything to anyone because, you know, we've, we've decided to move on and forget about it, right? Then our kids come along and something all of a sudden pops up in our brain. It might not happen at birth, but usually it does. And then, or they, your child gets to the age you were when that you were first abused and all of that stuff starts popping up in your brain and you can't let it go anymore.
You can't push it and suppress it. And I was just thinking about that. I was telling people about that yesterday. I was [00:18:00] telling these chaplains, you know, If we don't deal with it at the, at the, well, if we don't, it's never gone, is it? Trauma never goes. It's just, you learn to, it's like a wound that's, you know, needs a band or needs stitches, needs a band, a bandage, then needs a band aid and then it's a scab and then it's, you know, a scar basically.
And that's how trauma works and it's internal. And so with regards to all of that, I'm just wondering, is it, is there, was there a turning point for you that decided I'm going to start talking about this?
John: Yeah, so just a bit of background. So once it was all dealt with, with the authorities, I was certainly saw a psychiatrist and and I should mention while I was being sexually abused, my mum was, my parents were so concerned about my changing behaviour.
But I was seeing a, a a psychiatrist
Kristi: at the
John: time to figure out what was going on and I still couldn't disclose what was happening to me. So I find that really interesting and amazing [00:19:00] that a professional, not just a psychologist, but a psychiatrist wasn't able to unpack, not that it's his fault or anyone's fault for that matter, but just amazing how the perpetrators work and how they make you feel.
Anyway, that's probably a different for a different time, but I've been relatively okay up until maybe a year, a year and a half ago. And when I say relatively okay, look, over the journey, I get anxiety. So I get really Really bad anxiety peaks. So day to day I'm, I'm, I'm okay. Um, you know, I've been really well connected with my family and friends and which I'm being really lucky and being involved in lots of team sports.
And that's really helped my sense of belonging and that sort of thing. But yeah, you're spot on. When my, my son. Is near the age of when I was sexually abused, and I don't know what happened, it just triggered something that I haven't, I haven't felt, and I'm happy to go into detail, I would think, You [00:20:00] know, I still have memories of when I was being sexually abused.
There's, there's like, there's like pictures and movie reels that I remember. Yep. And there's one particular scene I would think that my son was there in place of me. Yeah. And so, as we know with anxiety, if you don't feel like you're in control or it's uncertain, it can really peak. Yeah. So, obviously, I was out of control because I, My mind was taking over.
Yeah. I was having panic attacks that, you know, my son's going through this. I had this sense of, you know, loss of control, this, all those things. And that really triggered. You know, really intrusive thoughts around that. And I really need to seek professional help, which I did. And I'm glad I did because it, it's helped me understand, you know, how trauma works because I'm like, I've been relatively okay for 30 odd years.
What's, what's going on? You know, apart from having anxiety, you know, I've been able to manage that. And now all of a sudden it's just gone bang. [00:21:00] And, so when I saw the psychologist, he really unpacked how trauma works and especially when it comes to being sexually abused. And when you have your child, a child near the same age, you said it's relatively normal which didn't help, but it's good to understand.
Yeah. So yeah, hopefully that gives you a bit of background and right now I'm in a much better place. Like I still have those thoughts, but I don't don't engage with them like I used to. So.
Kristi: Yeah, I can relate because I left the police with PTSD, as you can imagine you know, those, those movie reels continue to play.
It doesn't matter how much you understand what you understand about trauma, but when anxiety and PTSD decide to play together, it's all bets are off.
John: Yeah, absolutely.
Kristi: And And it's really,
John: and it can be really scary.
Kristi: Yeah. Yeah. And so I can totally relate to that and relate to because my daughter was only two when I joined the police.
[00:22:00] And so when I was going, and I would I can relate, but in a way, because when I would interview a child who was the same age as my daughter and going through something so horrendous that I would just, I would see my daughter in that movie reel instead of, so I can relate, except it obviously vicarious trauma, trauma.
It's all the brain doesn't differentiate. It just knows that there's something to be fearful of, scared of, and it puts whoever in there to protect us. And but yeah, I, that was my thought process because you mentioned your children. And I'm thinking, yeah, I bet any money that it doesn't matter how well you thought you've healed and you can like, you can go along in your life.
I don't think people realize this so much like parents realize. And then, you know, I was, I had some trauma at 12. It was nothing to do with you know, sexual abuse or anything, but it, when my daughter hit 12, that, that triggered that trauma from my parents. And, and everything can, I was out of control. It, it just [00:23:00] happened.
It was the perfect storm for me where, where I was going through leaving the place, PTSD, severe anxiety. And and then my daughter was, you know, 12 and she was, she was pushing boundaries and, you know, she felt safe to like, you know, yell back at me. And, and my control over my emotions was. It's non existent at that stage.
So we see that and we understand that when you're going through it, you don't understand it.
John: Absolutely. Absolutely not. And, and, and that's why you know, the old school thinking of, oh you know, don't speak about it because you know, you're just bringing up the past and, and, and and that sort of thing.
But you know, that can't be further from the truth. I think. Yeah. The more we speak about it, the more we heal. And, and, you know, any, I have a great understanding, not everyone wants to speak about it and, and that's okay because that's part of their protective mechanism. And I think to a certain point I used that over 30 years and I think that's why I've done [00:24:00] pretty well because I think my brain really protected me.
But I think the more we talk about it, the more we raise awareness. And I honestly think we've, we've, we've, we've, I, I say this lightly, but I think we have enough awareness. I think it's more about acting. Yes. And let, let's, let's educate now because we've got so many mental health services now and so many awareness days and weeks and years.
We really need to call to action now. And I know jokingly, I think the more promoting and awareness we do is great, but I think we're at a, at a time, age now where we, we really need to act. It's time to get
Kristi: shit done.
Tina: Quickly interrupting this episode to let you know that Christie has a whole library full of resources to support you. If this podcast hits home for you and you want to learn more about cyber safety, abuse awareness and prevention, and how you can protect your children, head to the link in the show notes where you can access free downloads, informative guides, and courses relating to these [00:25:00] topics.
You can also order Christie's book, Operation KidSafe, a detective's guide to child abuse prevention. If you want to join the fight against child sexual abuse, you can support Chrissy to reach a wider audience by leaving a review on this podcast or sharing it with your community.
John: Yeah, well, you said it. Absolutely, and I think, look, the more we talk about it, and I think every time we talk about it, we need to give something back to people, so it's not just about promotion and creating awareness, but, okay, I've spoke to you about all of these things.
Let's have an opportunity to talk about, okay, your listeners, what, what can you do? So I think that, and hopefully we get a chance, maybe near the end, but I know I
Kristi: was going to go there now. So what do you do now? Cause I know that you go out and present and you took in school. So what are you doing with your.
Like education and stuff. What do you do?
John: Yeah. So I think the best, best thing for me to talk about is what I do with my own kids, because that's what people want to hear. You know, we [00:26:00] all work professionally and you know, we've got to toe a line and be careful what we say, but I think the best thing is to hear is what I do with my own children.
So I started educating my own children from a very young age, but like, they're both nearly six and four. And I just started when they were two. So just naming their private body parts by the correct terms for your listeners. If they don't know perpetrators, we'll use nicknames to try and hide especially for little children.
If they're saying garden hose you know, that's not going to really trigger. Trigger any parent or safe adult say, Hey, what's going on? So that's just a really bad example, but that's, that's what's, that's what happens in the real world, so to speak. So educating what their private body parts are, including their mouths, because a mouth, although they can you can say it and it's not private, it's still a private body parts that should not be touched.
So I educate my own kids that their mouth is also a private body [00:27:00] part. I give them a really simple two or three step process of what they need to follow if they feel unsafe, whether it's they've been touching them appropriately, or they're just feeling unsafe. So. Step one is they say, stop, I don't like that.
That's it for a child. That's two or three. That's all they can comprehend. I know some kids are smarter, but but just really simple. And so stop, I don't like that. Number two, they need to tell mommy and daddy. And that's obviously for us. And that could look different for, for other families.
And I explicitly tell them, if someone says, you know, If you tell mummy and daddy or someone we're gonna hurt you or we're gonna hurt mummy and daddy. That was my experience. But they still tell us, so we have lots of conversations around that. We don't have any secrets. We, we, we gather around the table lots, whether it's over dinner and we have these open discussions that there are no secrets and we have scenario based situations.
So what would happen if, [00:28:00] if someone touched you on the bum and you didn't like that? Yeah. And you'll see my beautiful daughter. She'll say, Stop. I don't like that. Then what, then what will you do next? If they keep touching you, I'll tell mommy and daddy what, well, what would happen if they told you that they're going to hurt you really badly, or they're going to hurt mommy and daddy.
And she'll say, I'll still tell mommy and daddy. So, you know, they're not in, like, it could be different if they're, they're in, in that situation and that, and that's why it needs to be repeated and rain falls. All the time, not just a once off. And when, like, if we're in the shower, if I'm having a shower with my kids, it's taken the opportunity.
Of naming them, that no one is to touch them.
Kristi: Yep.
John: I go to the point where if you're at the doctor's and they need to you know, look at your bum because you have a rash. If mummy and daddy are there, then it's okay. If you're by yourself, then no. So, you know, Being really explicit to the point where you're breaking it [00:29:00] down.
Yeah. So I'm really, I'm glad. No,
Kristi: I'm look, everything you're talking and everything you're saying and everything you're teaching your, your young people. I have done the same thing with my daughter. I did the same thing with my daughter. Now people always say to me, Oh, but that's just like, you're scaring them.
You're You know, you're going into too much detail. Oh, I don't want my child to be, their innocence to be stolen. What do you say to that?
John: I haven't, look, I have to be honest with you. I haven't really heard that and I would be really surprised if I did hear that and I'm really mortified if that's, if that's have had people say that
Kristi: to me.
Yeah.
John: And. And again, well, you know, it's not their fault. I guess it's what they know. So it comes back to educating and saying, okay, if that's your mindset, which is fine how do you know, and how do you feel safe knowing what your five year old would do in a situation? So I'll put it back on them. I'd say [00:30:00] that's fine.
How do you feel that your five year old or four year old would respond in a situation? Such as someone taking advantage of them and just see what their response would be. So it's really being not aggressive or passive aggressive, but just trying to meet where their mindset is because we need to really start shifting people's mindsets because we're still in an old school age.
I feel we're slowly, I think coming out of it, but we've still got a huge way to go. So it's really not getting into any sort of battle. It's just really trying to educate people.
Kristi: Do you feel your children are scared when you talk about these things, or do you feel like they, tell me, tell me what your experience is with that?
Yeah,
John: it's only been, I'm really surprised, like I guess I only know what I know and no, they're really great discussions, there's no, They haven't been scared or or anything like that. Yeah,
Kristi: that was my experience with my daughter. She was [00:31:00] very excited, especially when she was little because she would role play.
She would role play that stuff. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.
John: And that's, that's the same. I only get. I mean, sometimes it's like a game, which I want them to be a bit more serious, but I get at the cognitive level. But at least they've got like a strategy. So and if you practice it, it'll be
Kristi: second nature.
John: Yeah.
And my kids always ask me what happens if someone touches your bum daddy? Well, I'll say stop. And then I'll, and the other key is to role model, because again, as adults, I think we forget, we think our children, Like, for example, I took my daughter to the footy, we caught the train, she's never been to a train station
Kristi: and
John: she ran towards the track and me and my wife were like, what are you doing?
Why did you do that? And I'm like, and we reflected and how is she supposed to know, she's never been to a train station. So true. But it just made me, it made me reflect, like we just expect children [00:32:00] to know, they're not to know because it's up to us as safe adults to teach them. And I think we forget that we explicitly teach our children reading, writing, maths, and so many things which are so critical and important, but we, we're really missing a piece from, from a parent point of view that we need to be teaching these life skills.
Kristi: Yes. Definitely. I, they are life skills and they you know, your, your children are still quite fairly young, but as they age, those conversations morph into talking about consent, talking about online safety, talking about their first relationships. Healthy relationships, like, Oh my
John: goodness. Those foundations
Kristi: are very, they're foundational work, which then morphs into all of those things.
And, and then you get to parenting 16 and 17 year olds and you'll be like, Oh, this is easy. We can talk about anything. Nothing's off the table. We can talk about everything. And we have these safe relationships with our [00:33:00] parents.
John: Absolutely. Or even our
Kristi: carers, whoever, whoever is your safe person.
John: Yeah. And everyone, what, it's really complicated because there's different cultures with different beliefs and that sort of thing. So and that's okay, but it's just coming back to you know, I'm a really big believer in Trying to educate, but again, you know, telling someone what to do can be really difficult.
So, you know, it's creating resources for people to follow that's easy and clear. I think less is more, you know, you, we don't want a one page document of how to speak to your children to be safe. So like I'm creating like body safe cards how to speak to children zero to two. You know, four to six and so forth, because I think parents and educators need something to go off, but yeah, I just think the more education we need to be really explicit with our children.
I don't think it's unsafe to do so. And I can understand why families would feel [00:34:00] that, but I think they're doing a disservice if children don't know how to act protectively and keep themselves safe because unfortunately. I'm a bit of a helicopter parent. I won't always I won't always be around. So I want to give them the tools to be able to use if we're not around.
Kristi: No, that's fantastic and that's really all very usable tools and things for your children and for anyone listening who has children. You know, It's as simple as just having those conversations and not being scared to have those conversations. It's not doing any damage to your children. It's actually empowering them.
John: Oh, absolutely. And the more we do it, again, I can't, I can't say it enough. It needs to be repeated and reinforced, and it needs to be very explicit. I think that's, those are the missing pieces. And I understand like, I truly understand for some [00:35:00] families, it's really difficult to talk about. But as the adult, it's your responsibility and you need to be accountable to ensure that your child is safe and knows what to do.
And if you don't know what to do or what to say, as I was saying, we've got so many organizations and websites to see all these resources. There's absolutely no excuse. Yeah. So, and that's what, that's absolutely not having a go at anyone because like I said, everyone's at a different point. It's just now that your listeners, listeners are aware, it's about what are they doing?
What's the next steps that they're going to take now that they are aware now?
Kristi: Yeah. And once you know, you can't unknow this stuff. Like literally can't just sit on your, on your hands and go, nah, I'm not doing this. And, and it's interesting because I mean, when I left the place, I wrote a book and it. Has kind of taken off recently and it's been out for two years.
And so it means that when I wrote the book, I was [00:36:00] just thinking, I just want parents to know what I know. And same for you, you'll just want parents to know what you know. And it's because we know that this is life changing stuff. We know that this, It can either prevent harm or reduce the amount of harm to children.
And, and why wouldn't we want, you know, we, we learn about swimming. We teach our kids water safety. We teach our kids road safety. We teach our kids train safety. We teach our kids all of these safety lessons. This is just another safety lesson.
John: Yeah. And it needs to be. Like you could argue it's more important than being road, well, being road and swimming and all that's very sad.
All of them, all of them
Kristi: should be part of the life skills we teach our kids. Yeah. And if we did, I mean, it's starting to change, but if we did, we would see a massive reduction in abuse. And I hope with people like you working and doing what you're doing, me, all of us working together, we're going to see a reduction in the next 10 years.[00:37:00]
And that would be. That would mean we've done a job well done because at the moment we're seeing an increase and we've seen an increase over the last 10 years and, and in stats and it means we've done our job. We're doing, we're making a difference.
John: Just, just to go back to your point of, I think you were sharing you said when you were sharing this sort of stuff on your social media about family members and, and that you're getting a bit of pushback.
I think it's really important for everyone to know that 90 percent of cases of sexual abuse are are known to the child.
Kristi: Yeah.
John: So either, you know, within the family or close friendship. So yeah, that's really important for your listeners to know over 90%, which is huge.
Kristi: Yeah. And you know, again, and.
It's not. It's not it's gender. Unfortunately, the highest percentage of gender who does abuse children is men, but there's women offenders as well. So all of these behaviors, regardless of who they are, regardless of who then [00:38:00] yeah, who they are in the family or who they are to that child, to a child, it's important to know that these are unsafe.
Behaviors or these you know, what is unsafe and inappropriate so that, or what is safe and appropriate so that when the opposite happens, children know that they go to mom and dad or their safe adult and tell them about it because then they can, they can prevent it reduce the harm. But you know, it's not, I get a lot of pushback because I think people don't want to think the worst of, of family members or of whoever, but.
I like you in your case, you know, our, the perpetrators and the offenders are very good at, you know, grooming parents, very good at grooming families. They've been doing it a long time. That's how they get that's how they get their victims to your point of being able to be trusted with them, you know?
And so it's not, it's, it's a, it's a life saving skill to know this stuff.
John: And we don't want to look, I don't want to be. [00:39:00] scaring people but it's just being aware and informed.
Kristi: You
John: know, I don't want people starting to think about their own family members, but unfortunately that statistics it doesn't lie.
So it's really important just to be aware of what it is. Absolutely. So with that knowledge, it's just a call, call to action now. So if they're listening and you're enjoying this, The best thing that you can do is to educate and inform, not just your own children, but the children in your life, nephews, nieces.
Kristi: Yeah.
John: Have a chat with their parents. Be the safe adult in
Kristi: your, in all children's lives. You know, I think we'd
John: say, Oh, so you guys, so,
Kristi: I was just going to say, you know, I talk to young people all the time when I go into schools and stuff and you know, they come and have a private conversation with me and I use those, that language appropriate and inappropriate, safe and unsafe.
And I'm like, it's not, you know, it's I've had, for instance, just [00:40:00] once particular scenario had a young boy with autism asked me for, you know, If I, he could have my number so he could call me or talk to me or like support me. He actually wanted to support me. And I said to him, Oh, that's so lovely.
Like, thank you so much for wanting to help me. But you know, it's actually not safe to have adults numbers. You're, you're a child and, and you know, it's not safe to have, cause we're not actually, we we've only just met we're strangers. Right. And I was trying to explain to him about strangers, you know, that we're strangers.
I, you know, I, I consider myself a safe adult, but really you know, it's, and I've got, luckily I've got good support and, and, you know, please make sure that you continue to be such a supportive person. But I, I use the language, you know, it's not actually safe for adults to be friends with kids that we don't know very well.
And so, you know, thank you very much for that. But, you know, that was just a random young fella that I met, but, you know, our kids are. Our kids, we need [00:41:00] to like share what's safe and unsafe and appropriate and inappropriate with them. So they understand it so that when that, when something happens, cause it's going to happen, there's going to be people that act inappropriately and and unsafe around them, you know, when it happens, they know what to do and.
I cut you off. So you go ahead and hopefully you haven't forgotten your train of thought. I
John: think I have, but that's okay. But the other thing, the other conversation just on that, I talk to my kids, what does it feel like to be safe? What does it feel like to be unsafe? Because I think your gut feel is your second brain for a reason.
And even though they don't understand that, but we use language like, how does your tummy feel? And so they're able to they're in an age where they're starting to articulate some words around being safe and unsafe. And even though safe, you know, to my son is, you know, To be happy and absolutely spot on to be safe.
You're feeling happy. I think my daughter used the word unsafe means frustrated. So [00:42:00] she's getting there, but it's just having, and you might feel frustrated, but it's, it's just starting the conversation at a young age. So,
Kristi: and they'll have the language. They've got language that they can then share with someone if something happens and that's the hard part.
I think as. A six year old, your six year old self probably didn't have the language to be able to explain what was happening.
John: And it's no one's fault. Like, because what you don't know, you don't know.
Kristi: Yeah.
John: So yeah, I'm, I'm really, again, I keep harping on to it, but it's about a call to action and to educate yourself and others now to your listeners.
Kristi: If they're listening to this podcast, they will go out and they'll have those conversations and they'll do, you know, what we said, because you wouldn't be here listening to this podcast if you didn't want to take action.
John: Well, sometimes that's the issue though. We're preaching to the converted. So the they converted.
Need to go out and preach more and they can blame us, but I know,
Kristi: I don't know [00:43:00] about you, John, but when I, when my daughter was doing netball and stuff and this, you've got a few, it's probably coming for you now, you know, in the future I would go to netball and everyone, something would happen or someone would bring something up and then, you know, there would be a two hour conversation around body safety and child safety.
And, and then all of a sudden I noticed people weren't stopping to talk to me anymore.
John: Well, that's not very nice.
Kristi: I know. No, it's not because of that, but that I'm the person that everyone turns to when they want advice on this stuff. And I'm sure you are too, you know, you're that safe adult that people can get that that information from or that safe adult and, you know, We all have a part to play in protecting kids, all of us, not just our own children, any children.
John: Yep, it's all of our responsibility. And I'd just like to share, I'm really big on, so for me my, my biggest healers have been a connection and a sense of belonging. And my, my [00:44:00] tagline I like to share is that children spell love a different way. It's another four letter word, time, T I M E. So. I think that's, we, that as adults, we've got competing priorities around sport, social commitments and work.
But it's, it's really your responsibility as a safe adult and a parent to spend quality time with your children and building that foundation. Because it's one thing to have those conversations around You know, what's safe and unsafe, but without that foundation of having safe connections and making that time and effort, then it can be really hard to have those conversations.
So I would start with building your relationship and connection with your children, building their sense of belonging, because once they have a sense of belonging, that really builds their confidence and resilience. And, and that feeling of Feeling safe and protected at all times. And I think that's, that's a critical part of building that foundation to have those.
Vital [00:45:00] conversations because without it, it makes it a little bit harder.
Kristi: Yeah. So true. And I think that's a beautiful place to, to end this conversation, but it's so, so interesting. So much of what you've said today is stuff I've, I've, Set on like repeat and also the time thing. Like I was thinking about time this morning.
In fact, is that the bet, the most important thing we can give our children is time. And when they're little, we give them a lot more time than when they actually start becoming more independent. And sometimes it just happens because we get busier or they get busier, but time is the only thing we have that we can't get back.
We can, we can give them all the things in the world, all of the, the new gadgets and toys and things, but time is something we can't get back and we can't read, give them. So yeah, time, time plus time plus energy and, and, you know, that loving energy that is going to that so that they feel safe to come to us.
If something does happen or to [00:46:00] ask us the questions that they need answered. It's so, so, so vitally important. So thank you so much, John. I've, I've loved talking to you because you, you basically my, the male version of me, because everything you've said is what I say. Right. No, no, that's great. It's been an amazing conversation and I think it's It's so lovely to hear that you were sharing your story and that you've, that you've got the, these beautiful conversations with your young people and you're, you're just, you know, you're over on the East coast sharing what I share over there.
So I'm really grateful for the conversation for you putting your hand up to talk about this with me. Yeah, thank you so much.
John: Thank you for the work that you do, and thank you for having me on on your podcast. So I'm so grateful
Kristi: to you. And for anyone else listening, if they want to connect with you, how do they do that?
John: Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn as John Cardamone on Facebook. I'll share. [00:47:00] And I've got my own website up now. It is johncardamone. com. au where I have some, I've only got one free resource but I'm developing a body safe cards that everyone will have access to and on that website, I just share my story And the resources I'll be with your permission or have this podcast up there so they can also listen to that and a few other podcasts.
So absolutely reach out come on the website. I've got my email there too, and connect with me on, on Socials. I think that's what they amazing called social. Yeah.
Kristi: That's amazing. Thank you so much. And we will definitely keep in touch. Who knows? I might be over in Melbourne later in the year early next year, so that, that would be awesome to, to meet in person.
John: Absolutely. I've never been to WA so I might have to well, let us
Kristi: to know if you come over and we'll take you for a drive down to Margaret River .
John: Sounds good. Thank you so much.
Kristi: Thank you. [00:48:00] Thank you for listening to this podcast episode. Education empowers children and empowers parents and education prevents abuse. That is why I'm here and that is why you are here. So thank you. If you want any further information or support, follow me on social media, either under Christy McVie or KAU social media accounts.
I'll put the links in the show notes. You can also purchase a signed copy of my book Operation Kids Safe via the [email protected]. Also, on my website is a free ebook titled 10 Tips to Keep Your Kids Safe from Abuse. and self paced courses for parents to help you in your journey of child abuse prevention.
Don't forget to join our free Facebook group called Operation KidSafe Parenting Group. Please see the show notes for any extra information, links and help should you be looking for extra support. Thank you once again for [00:49:00] giving a shit about preventing child sexual abuse. See you next time.
