Lauren B (00:00)
think I didn't have as many memories because what happened with the adult happened over the course of a few years and this happened like not as many times so I didn't have as many memories so therefore they didn't think that there was enough evidence to do anything. So and I remember speaking to my psychologist in year 12 about this
and she was trying to distinguish whether it was what she called healthy child curiosity.
I think that's a very harmful phrase. I don't think that kids are just experimenting because there's so many conceptions about child and child. It's not curiosity or experimenting or trying to figure things out. If a child is doing that, it's serious. I think it happens so often child on child sexual abuse, but it's never spoken about.
Kristi McVee - Intro (00:42)
Welcome to Conversations with Kristi I'm Kristi McVee a former WA police officer, specialist child interviewer and child abuse detective. For years I worked on the front lines investigating child sexual abuse, where I saw the risks, the patterns and most importantly, the ways that we can protect our kids. Now I'm here to share that knowledge with you. This podcast is all about real conversations, giving parents, carers and educators the tools to keep their kids safe, both in person and online.
Through survivor stories, expert insights and practical advice, we'll navigate these tough topics together so you feel informed, confident and empowered. Because when we know better, we can do better and our kids deserve nothing less. CONTENT WARNING Some topics and conversations can be triggering for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised as your mental health is important. Please refer to my website and the show notes for available support services.
Kristi McVee (01:40)
Hello and welcome back to Conversations with Kristi. I am so happy to be here on this Friday morning, well Friday lunchtime actually for me. And we are back talking about child abuse prevention and education and just having general conversations around how we can keep our families safe and how we can learn from all of the amazing victim survivors and advocates that are in our spaces, in our communities. And today I'm gonna be talking with Lauren.
Lauren and I connected again through LinkedIn. I'm so grateful for all of these people I meet on LinkedIn. I learned so much from all of the people that are both advocates and educators and victim survivors and people working so tirelessly to help us protect our kids, help us learn from the errors and mistakes of the past, learn from like what they've been through. So Lauren, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate you.
Lauren B (02:33)
No worries, thank you so
much for having me and thank you for all the amazing work that you do. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (02:39)
I just talk. I'm a very, yeah, the thing, I think I started the podcast thinking I'm, you know, I can talk, I love talking, obviously. This is the third season. I love listening to, I love hearing stories. so Lauren, I guess just to get started, you reached out and said you're a victim survivor and that you've had a pretty interesting, interesting journey, I guess, you know, some.
some not so great things have happened, some not so great experiences, but also you've turned that into, and I was thinking about this before we jumped on, I was thinking about the fact that you turned your experiences into power because now you're actually doing something with what happened to you. So for my listeners and for the Conversations with Kristi podcast listeners, can you tell us about you and what's led you to where you are now?
Lauren B (03:27)
Yeah sure,
so my name's Lauren. I am currently studying psychology. I'm in my third year. Just before I started university actually during year 12, I went through the disclosure process of child sexual abuse and navigating that while doing my HSC which is the New South Wales High School Certificate.
was pretty stressful to say the least but I've tried to use it for a positive way and hopefully be a psychologist one day once I keep studying, it takes a long time but I'm trying to volunteer with Lifeline and services like that as well as this wonderful organisation called What Were You Wearing which is founded by Sarah Williams. I help run their survivor healing groups so I'm really trying to use
my experience and my court and police journey to try and help other people I guess because I think
It just makes what you've gone through a little bit more. Like it's better to know that you're trying to help other people, which I kind of hope I'm doing and will continue to do, but otherwise it kind of feels pointless. Not that it should have happened, but just making it mean something to me at least. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (04:45)
Yeah, wow. Wow. I'm big shocked there that you went through that process whilst trying to finish school. My own daughter is 17, finishing her year 12 at the moment, trying to finish and get her certificate right now. And I know how stressed she is and how, you know, like she just keeps thinking, yeah, it's just a crazy year. So to go through that process in that year is my hats off to you because that would have been.
Yeah, your head would have been all over the place and now you're studying to become a psychologist. So you've obviously, you know, you're a driven young woman to be in that space and to do that work plus, you know, everything you've been through as well.
Lauren B (05:24)
Thank you so much.
yeah, think year 12 is definitely a difficult year and I don't know, it's been a bit difficult making it through high school and uni but I guess somewhat of my resilience comes from trying to help people make it in a...
useful way I guess and I'm grateful for places like this to be able to talk about it. I'm very passionate about like trauma-informed care now which is quite a serious topic to be passionate about at 20 but I think that would have been very helpful for me and something that I hope that I can use for other people in the future.
Kristi McVee (05:46)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah, well, and with you saying trauma informed care, I know that when I was a police officer, we didn't talk about that. I mean, I've been out of the police for five years now, but even I could have used better training. I know that I could have used better training, better resources. could have just had had I had that information when I was in the police or more so.
I just would have done a better job and I think I did a really good job for some of it. I went off my intuition and my instincts a lot of the time on how to help people and to listen.
trauma creates so many different reactions that might seem like something else but it's actually trauma and I wish I had known that before. So I really honour the fact that you want to help change the landscape with trauma-informed care and stuff like that because I wish I had have had that information sooner. So talking about trauma-informed care and your journey, I guess the best way to explain why you're passionate
about it is to share with us why you, like what happened for you to get you to the point where you think wow I need to help them learn this stuff or I need to like push this trauma-informed care forward because your journey wasn't so great.
Lauren B (07:17)
Yeah, and it is difficult especially for like police. I don't think that there is that training. I think, you can definitely do the best that you can, which I'm sure you did. It's just, it's a very kind of difficult area to implement. So I guess, when I was
I first disclosed it in year 11 to my psychologist and I was told that obviously because I was under 18 I had to be reported like they were mandatory reporters I didn't really have a say in that. So you had to come up with three main memories and I remember telling my psychologist okay well firstly trauma informed care and psychology. I think I'd want to preface by saying there are so many amazing psychologists and police and lawyers and I'm not trying to
say that they aren't, just from my personal experience, saying memories and them kind of being dismissed or like, I don't think it's possible for you to have that memory or I think you're remembering it wrong, kind of thing. It's not very helpful to hear, I guess. So I didn't really have a choice in going to the police. But when I was there, there was at first a wonderful detective. She was so understanding and so helpful. She unfortunately had an injury.
she
had to, I got switched to another police officer. And I guess the main interaction that kind of was the catalyst for all this talk about trauma informed care was I got an email from her one day and I was, said, I'm happy to come closer to you, but there's an update on your case. I'd love to talk to you about it. And I remember that day so clearly because I was in such a happy mood that day. We...
Sort of where I was in the case was I was, I've told my story multiple times and we've kind of written the police report about it in regards. So I have two perpetrators, one of them the adult.
on child perpetrator. That was the most, the main thing, I guess that's another thing to mention. Even though were two perpetrators, only one was taken more seriously, I guess. And she was said that she'll get in contact with me.
Kristi McVee (09:07)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lauren B (09:14)
because we were going to try and set up a system where I would call the perpetrator and try and get a confession, but they had to speak to the lawyer team to determine if there was enough evidence to actually do that. So I went to the interview that day and she said that there wasn't enough evidence and it was my fault that the court process couldn't go forward because my memory...
like the details of my story slightly changed every time I spoke about it so she's like the lawyers don't think that there's a strong enough case because you could be lying and she said do you know why your memory keeps changing and I think I was kind of in shock I kind of I kind of giggle when I'm nervous I guess I
and it did that really stuck with me for a long time because it was like why does my memory keep changing but over time with my psychologist I've learned like how trauma blocks things out which I'm sure people on this podcast have spoken about before and I couldn't remember certain things because like in order to keep going with uni and stuff because when this happened I was I started my first year of uni all the police interviews happened during the HSC for me I had to
keep
I had to block it out it was not consciously but I had to be able to keep like functioning I had to things out so I guess that language of blame was really harmful for me I remember just leaving that
Kristi McVee (10:27)
Yeah.
I've never heard someone say that, like I would never say that to a victim. would be, you know, and this is the thing, I know that trauma does that. It's a coping mechanism, it's a safety mechanism that the brain has instilled so that you can survive. It's a survival mechanism and you know, I've seen parents...
Lauren B (10:45)
100%.
Kristi McVee (10:53)
give birth to their newborn and all of the memories from their childhood come flooding back. They had no memory until the minute their first child or their child hits the age they were when they were abused. And that's because up until that point, your brain is like sitting there trying to protect you, protect you, protect you, and then something happens and it triggers it all. So I'm not surprised that you're struggling to remember. I mean, especially if it was multiple occasions, multiple things happened.
Lauren B (11:02)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (11:20)
not more than one. I remember when I was interviewing kids that the thing I learned during then and that may be why I have a little bit more knowledge than the average everyday police officer detective because I learned about the fact that memories do that. But I remember we used to ask the question, when was the first time? Because usually the first time is the one that you remember the most and the last time because you know why it stopped.
And then sometimes you might get one or two occasions, especially if it was all the time or lots of times, you might get one or two occasions that were memorable because something was different to the others. so, you know, that's, so we would ask you, I would ask children, you know, do you remember the first time? Do you remember the last time? Do you remember anything else? You know, is there any others that stand out? It could have been their birthday when it happened or it could have been something else. So.
Lauren B (11:52)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (12:10)
I don't think people realise, and I can't believe that that detective used that language, like that's just horrendous, I'm so sorry.
Lauren B (12:15)
Thank you.
Yeah, I don't want to say that all police are like that because I'm sure that you wouldn't be like that all. That's not my intention, but just for my personal experience. And yeah, can be you remember the first and the last time the most. Like you said, that definitely makes sense and can be the case. really depends. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (12:26)
I would highly try not to.
Well, yeah, I'm gobsmacked by that. so that basically, you're on a high, you go in there, they say, we've got no evidence, we can't proceed any further. Was that them writing off the case? Was that it?
Lauren B (12:50)
she gave
me the option of writing it off or interviewing...
people that the perpetrator knew to try and get them to say, yeah, I think he would do that. But at that point, I don't know if this was the right thing, but I was like really, I was just so upset by what she said. was just, I don't think that they're going to be helpful. Like why would they rat him out kind of thing? So I was just like, I'll just leave it. And I think maybe if she had said, maybe make sure that you're linked up with some support.
today, are you okay to like get home or I don't know just it was kind of like she told me that and it was like a like five ten minute conversation outside the door. Yeah bye, your case isn't going forward but go and deal with it. I remember just like crying I walked it was like a 40 minute walk home and I was just sobbing the whole time.
Kristi McVee (13:31)
Bye.
Wow.
my gosh Lauren, I'm so sorry. Like this kind of thing, when I hear stories like this, I'm just like, where is the compassion and empathy? Where is the, like, and I can see, and we kind of had a small conversation about this before we started, you know. There was police officers that I worked with where I thought, you shouldn't be a police officer.
Lauren B (13:46)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (13:59)
And I'm not gonna, you know, I wouldn't name anyone, but they shouldn't be in the job anymore. Like literally they don't care anymore. And I don't know how that happens because I cared so much that it nearly killed me. I was like, and, but you know, and I knew my time was up when that, you know, obviously my mental health was so...
Lauren B (14:10)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (14:18)
damaged
and stuff but I just don't understand how people can be like that. You're working in an industry that requires empathy, compassion and you know to believe people especially when it comes to child sexual abuse.
Lauren B (14:30)
Yeah, it
definitely would be a hard area to work in. So I really respect all the detectives who care so much and are really compassionate. I think that goes a long way because no one's really in a child abuse detective's office because they really want to be. I personally didn't really want to report it at the time because I was so young, but you kind of had to because I was under 18 when
Kristi McVee (14:56)
Hmm.
Lauren B (15:00)
But anyway, just having that compassion which I'm sure you had, but it's definitely a very hard field and I don't want to take away from that. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (15:01)
Mm.
Don't be so nice, like that detective was shit. She deserves a smack, a metaphoric smack. So from your story, you reckon, so your initial psychologist didn't give you the right care either? Is that what you were saying? Like they weren't very good at helping you through that process or were they okay but?
Lauren B (15:08)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (15:30)
and Major also doubts some of this stuff.
Lauren B (15:32)
I think
she was good.
It was just some of the memories, she wasn't very validating, was kind of like dismissing, I don't think that happened. But I've had amazing psychologists. Yeah, I don't know. I've had, my psychologist now is absolutely amazing and I don't want to discourage people from opening up because there are some psychologists who are amazing. Like my one currently has helped me so much and is the reason that I can keep going to uni and kind of function like a...
Kristi McVee (15:43)
I just don't understand saying that.
Yep.
Lauren B (16:02)
just yeah get through things but she was a good psychologist it was just dismissing memories I don't think that was very helpful
Kristi McVee (16:12)
That's not helpful
at all. No, no, no, especially when you're trying to get the courage to say, to tell people what's happened and yeah, okay, memories are a bit tricky and they can be a bit dodgy at times, you know, it doesn't mean, and this is the thing, right? The body, it's, I say this to people all the time. There is, the body remembers, like the body is the one that, the nervous system, the body, all of that stuff, you know.
whatever you remember is what you remember it's real to you and so it's real to you and your body so yeah it's really interesting and especially when it comes to little kids like people always said to me i had it yesterday do you think that they're lying like a two and a half year old lying about being touched by an adult in their family and i was like they're two and a half years old how can they lie about this stuff
Lauren B (16:57)
Exactly, exactly. I don't think a kid would lie
about that. And if you have doubts, just keep talking to them or try to understand because I don't think a kid would necessarily lie about something that serious.
Kristi McVee (17:10)
No, very rarely they do. you wanted to also talk about, I can totally see why you're so passionate about trauma informed care and getting people, like these professions need to be better informed. They need to be better trained. I 100 % agree. But you had both child on child abuse and adult on child abuse.
that and it's interesting that you said they couldn't they weren't interested in the child on child abuse because it's quite a difficult situation right especially if the child is a similar age to you to the victim what's your experience with that like what happened with all of that
Lauren B (17:42)
Yeah.
Yeah,
I was actually part of a
study called the ABAR project last year which focused on child on child sexual abuse and I met some wonderful people through I think I didn't have as many memories because what happened with the adult happened over the course of a few years and this happened like not as many times so I didn't have as many memories so therefore they didn't think that there was enough evidence to do anything. So and I remember speaking to my psychologist in year 12 about this
and she was trying to distinguish whether it was what she called healthy child curiosity. I think that's a very...
I don't think, I think that's a very harmful phrase. I don't think that kids are just experimenting because there's so many conceptions about child and child. It's not curiosity or experimenting or trying to figure things out. If a child is doing that, it's serious. I think it happens so often child on child sexual abuse, but it's never spoken about.
And I'm very, in part of that AVA project last year, it made me really passionate also about a group of survivors that aren't really spoken about or acknowledged because...
It isn't seen as serious, but even if they're a child and they're assaulting you, that is still very serious and should be taken seriously. So I think the police who handed my case should have looked further into that as well. Even if it doesn't happen over the space of years, it's still traumatic and serious. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (19:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, I 100 % agree. mean, we call it harmful sexualised behaviours in Australia, but the other thing to what you just mentioned is that there's a level of curiosity, but it has to be, you know, it's still within the framework of like, you know, we're not talking about toddlers just showing each other their private parts because it's funny and they get a laugh out of it. We're talking about children, you know, children performing sexual acts.
Lauren B (19:35)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (19:42)
children being forced into sexual acts, children having things done to them that they don't want done to them. When we get into that realm, and one of the things that I always say is, if we're talking about two children of a similar age and they're both wanting to do it, it has to be freely given, willing, they're not being coerced, not being bullied, like all of these things, we're gonna go, okay, well, that's normal experimentation, especially if it's age appropriate.
you know, two 11 year olds having their first kiss, two 13 year olds might be starting to fool around, whatever. Or a 13 and 14 year old, whatever. when it's, you know, an older child with a younger child, where there's a power imbalance, where there's forcing, where there's no choice, where a child feels they have to do it because they're in a locked room, or on a sleepover, or, you know, or it's a family member who's forcing this on them because they've, you know, and what we're seeing now with.
Lauren B (20:30)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (20:40)
harmful sexualised behaviours and child abuse, child on child abuse, is that the inappropriate pornography, know, same pornography, we're seeing more children harming each other or harming siblings, harming children that are in their home.
Lauren B (20:53)
Yeah,
for sure. Especially that power imbalance, I think that's a very important part of it. Yeah, and there is a difference, like you said, imposing sexual acts on someone rather than, like, I've never kissed someone before or I've never, like, discovered their own body. I think there's definitely a difference between them, like you said. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (21:13)
Well, there is. the thing is, I think the reason why police don't take child on child abuse seriously is because a lot of the times we're dealing with two children, right? what if we go and charge and if it's reported before they're 18 and it's not historical kind of thing, well, we're dealing with two children. What is the outcome for both?
victim and the abuser. I saw a lot more of it towards end of my career so you might be able to add some from that project. I saw so much of it before the end of my career. lot of it intra-familial, know, brothers and sisters, siblings, brothers, brothers, lots of sibling sexual abuse and you know you've got a parent who's like what do I do? How do I...
Lauren B (21:58)
you
Kristi McVee (22:00)
I don't know what to do. Okay, we'll just pretend it didn't happen. No, you're not meant to. And but I think the thing is, is because we don't talk about it, and because parents are stuck, they're like, I've got a child who's abused my other child, a child that is trauma. And generally, I don't know your experience, but generally the child that was the victim is quiet.
Lauren B (22:01)
Yeah, which is the thing that you don't do, which is the most humble.
Kristi McVee (22:25)
doesn't want to say anything, doesn't want to upset anyone, is submissive, passive, they're not fighting. not, they're a child that's, and I mean I might be generalizing here, but the child that's maybe harmed that child is the more boisterous child, the one that's got a little bit more control over the family or takes up more energy. So you know, all of the time an energy gets put on the child that's abused versus the child that was abused.
Lauren B (22:27)
Yeah.
Yeah,
I mean my experience wasn't within the family but I can't imagine how difficult that situation would be especially with differing personalities. yeah, parents not knowing what to do, I've heard that's quite a common thing but what parents should do is not just ignore it and throw it under the rug. Yeah, it's really tough especially in a family environment.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (23:11)
Yeah, and you know, and then you then you're dealing with, mean, sadly, a lot of the times child on child abuse, there's no one who gets charged, no one who gets like and there's but then there's no help either because police can't refer you to a victim support service or a counselling or and and there's so little services out there.
Lauren B (23:25)
Yeah,
I know. Yeah, it's...
I was very lucky in that adult on child I think is a bit more widely understood. Like I was able to access victim support scheme which helped me receive ongoing counselling but I think it's so difficult when there's two children. It just makes prosecution and charging even harder when it's...
That outcome isn't great when it's adult and child either, but it just adds another layer of difficulty and even more trauma if there's two kids because that's so confusing and you might not have even realised what had happened until years later, which then it's even harder to have an outcome. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (23:59)
Lay out.
Mm.
Yeah, I spoke to a sibling, so there's, mean in America they call it incest obviously when it's family, inter-familial, sibling on sibling, et cetera, and in Australia we just use child sexual abuse as the generic term for any type of sexual abuse. Do you think that Australia, in Australia we need to change terminology or need to sharpen up the terms that we're using to help people understand it better or what's your thoughts on all of that?
Lauren B (24:41)
Good question.
think child sexual abuse, I think that's a good term, but it's very broad. I think if we want more awareness, there needs to be more campaigns with child on child, I guess, using that terminology, being a little bit more specific.
or adult on child because I think child sexual abuse you probably think more of adult on child than child on child so maybe using that terminology and harmful sexual behaviour as well I think that's the term that the AIDA project use and you mentioned that earlier just putting it for what it is rather than beating around the bush I guess if we can label for what it is and
Kristi McVee (24:57)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Lauren B (25:19)
that can be difficult because it's really uncomfortable for people to hear or even fathom that kids can do that to each other. If we can say it for what it is and be specific and target child on child sexual abuse specifically, that would be very helpful. And just calling it for what it is, because I've heard terminology in the news like...
Kristi McVee (25:28)
Yeah.
Mm.
Lauren B (25:45)
teacher has relationship with child or like always has relationship with child which is just really harmful behaviour because a child cannot consent to having a relationship quite on quite with a teacher. It's grooming, it's assault, it's abuse, it's rape in some cases.
Kristi McVee (25:50)
I know how useless is that.
Lauren B (26:04)
So we definitely should be changing the language to call it out for what it is. And you can't have a relationship with someone so much older. I hear that in the news all the time. I really wish that language would change. Yes, definitely frustrating. I hope that answers your
Kristi McVee (26:15)
So frustrating,
I yeah, no, I agree with you. think not that, and I'm into mines. I like, I don't know enough about your situation with the child on child abuse to comment on your situation, but I'm into mines because when we're dealing with children, especially, you know, pre-pubescent children more so than pubescent children.
If they've had proper education, that's why I'm so passionate about body safety education, because I saw so many children obviously acting inappropriately, behaving inappropriately, and abusing other children without that foundational education that might have prevented it. It might have prevented them from harming another child if they had that educational background.
Lauren B (26:42)
Yes.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (27:04)
background, if they had had that education in their lives. But on the flip side of that, other children might have come forward and it might have been reduced, the harm might have been reduced if they had had that background. So I'm really passionate about body safety education.
Lauren B (27:15)
Thank
Yes, and that is such an important
point and I saw you do cards. I think all that work is so important because for me in both cases I was preschool age. So, so young. You don't understand.
Well, at least I did. I'm sure most kids don't understand what is appropriate and what isn't. And if it's someone that you know and you trust, you're more likely to just, I don't know, think it's normal if it happens so many times. you're just like, this is normal. it's just what they do. like calling, like saying vagina and penis, like being more open about it and maybe speaking to kids about...
Kristi McVee (27:44)
Yeah, it's just what they do.
Lauren B (27:55)
what is appropriate and what isn't from a very young age and I'm sure that's a very uncomfortable thing to do if kids are so young like how is it appropriate to be speaking to them about this it's just it can happen very young and if kids sort of know what is appropriate and what isn't which is what the amazing work you do with body safety especially for young kids that's so important because I think if I knew what was right from what was wrong I
could have known that it was wrong, because I had no idea I was so young, and said something, even though when you're a kid you can't be expected to, like it's very scary if you're with someone you trust or a family friend, which was the case for my child on child, you don't know that it's wrong, but if you have that education very young.
Kristi McVee (28:29)
No.
Lauren B (28:40)
That can be so helpful. think it would have helped me and I know I've spoken to lot of survivors. I know that that would have been very helpful for them as well. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (28:48)
Yeah and that's what I learnt from my years of interviewing children, talking to families, talking to survivors, adult survivors, a lot of that abuse, especially when it's before they start school. And a lot of survivors are abused before school age or before they actually hit that.
Lauren B (29:04)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (29:08)
But then, you know, if they had have had that information, they might have spoken up beforehand and they might have spoken up. It might have just, you know, the first instance might have happened or it might have happened, but they would have said something sooner and that harm would have been reduced. And I guess the next part to that is, and part of the education process is educating adults that, you know, when a child talks to you and says something, you have to believe them. You can't say things like, why is your memory?
Lauren B (29:27)
Yes.
100%.
Kristi McVee (29:36)
Why don't you remember? Hello, I think you're making this up. I could slap that psychologist. Because kids don't make this, there's a lot that can be said about children's imaginations, but...
Lauren B (29:43)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (29:54)
they don't imagine this stuff up especially before school school age like and they don't make it up and yeah okay there's the odd occasion of someone who says something and they say it because but there's always some semblance of truth to everything someone says so you know it's just got to find the find the little unpack it all and find it so yeah
Lauren B (30:05)
Yeah.
100 % even if you don't like
ask them more it's better to be safe and just if they say something just like can you like explain that to me or just asking them further questions because it's better in any case it's better to ask and try and help them rather than just be like they're probably lying they're too young to understand that or for them to have happened
Because I know a lot of cases like parents or teachers or whoever can't really fathom that happening so they kind of just dismiss it because it's like Like you know it can happen, but you don't think that it's someone that is in your family or someone in your class or whatever it is Close to you exactly it just ask some more questions. It's better to try and believe the victim than
Kristi McVee (30:36)
Mm.
Yeah.
Close yeah, or close to you or someone, you Yeah
Lauren B (30:56)
be like dismissing because in a way that's like perpetuating the system of perpetrators being believed in a way. If you don't believe the victim, even if they're young, just try and understand more. And if they say concerning things, there can be behaviors like little signs, which is very hard to pick up on, but it's better to be safe and to ask than to just dismiss it. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (30:58)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
100%. 100%. I just, you you mentioned behaviors and a lot of the time there is behaviors that match what they're trying to tell someone. The behaviors are actually what they show first. And sometimes they won't ever say anything. You know, they won't ever say anything to someone but the behavior is there to show that there was something going on the whole time.
Lauren B (31:32)
Exactly.
Exactly. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (31:43)
So yeah, did you show any behaviors that, do you remember if you had any behaviors that you were trying to tell back when it happened or after it happened with your abuse? Were you trying to tell someone through behavior or did you change behavior that you remember?
Lauren B (31:58)
I can't remember specific behaviours, honestly I don't think I was aware that it was wrong.
I think I just bec- I was very like cheeky. My mum has so many stories of me being younger just getting up to lot of mischief but after things happened I think she has later said that she remembers that I became a bit more anxious and reserved like behavioural changes. don't think like I know some kids complain inappropriately with toys or things like that like signs. I don't know if I did that I think it's just my personality changed like I became a lot more quiet and nervous and anxious rather than
Kristi McVee (32:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Lauren B (32:32)
just being silly and voiceless. Yeah exactly just I think maybe personality changes in me I know that there are physical signs and other people but I think for me it was just personality yeah.
Kristi McVee (32:33)
hmm the happy had the happy cheeky kid
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah, it's so difficult. it's, yeah, it's such a difficult thing. you know, but as a parent, you know your children, right? So you should be like, should be listening should be fine. Like you just have to spend some time to understand what, why, where, what's happening.
Lauren B (32:53)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (33:04)
Because eventually, like you said, just get curious about what's happening and changing for your children or what your child. So you're working with so many things, like you're helping survivor groups and you're working with all of these other places. Has that given you a sense of purpose with regards to, mean, weren't given the greatest experience by the police.
And you obviously haven't been able to go down the prosecution pathway. But in helping other people's lifeline and what you're wearing and stuff like that, are you finding some sense of peace with regards to that? Sorry, my words are not coming out. Are you finding some sort of peace?
Lauren B (33:48)
That's okay. I definitely
think so. I think psychology in undergrad is very like theoretical and it was because I'm so passionate about this I'm like is there any volunteering I can do or just I'm looking to volunteer at a women's shelter for example just things like that I think
I can't change what happened to me but I can kind of help people who might be struggling and in a certain situation but I think I'll be able to help more once I'm a bit more trained but yeah I think it just I can't really change what happened to me but if I can help other people that kind of gives me a bit of peace of mind and it gives me purpose because sometimes you're like
Kristi McVee (34:20)
Yeah, you're still early on in your journey.
Yeah.
Lauren B (34:35)
like struggling a bit so you're like, what can I do realistically to make myself deal with this or come to terms with it and I think giving back is a way to help and trying going on podcasts like this or because with the ABAR project as well last year that was focusing on child and child sexual abuse just if I can spread awareness as well
Kristi McVee (34:48)
Yeah.
Lauren B (34:59)
just to make sure that kids have dealt with a bit better and don't have a horrible process through the policing system. think that gives me peace of mind for sure. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (34:59)
Mmm.
experience.
Yeah.
Yeah, do you think, I mean one of the things that comes to mind is that obviously, you know, it was quite some time after the child on child abuse.
happened that you disclosed because you were talking to a safe person, obviously you felt safe with your psychologist and then you you disclosed to adult on child abuse as well. Do you think that you know what kind of hint sorry what kind of tips or hints or advice could you give parents in regards to any of that? I guess from your perspective if when you look back on what happened as a child no one knew it was happening because you didn't know what was happening. So we talked about body safety that
one of the things. Is there anything else you want to add to that on how parents can protect their kids from either child on child abuse or adult on child abuse or what's your take on all of that?
Lauren B (36:00)
That's a good question.
really was trying to think about that before I came on because I know that there might be lot of parents listening. In my particular situation, firstly for signs, I think if a kid is particularly close with an adult, like I was really attached to this person because...
I was told that they were my... I was their special person. Like there can be signs of grooming if a child becomes really attached all of a sudden to someone in an unhealthy way and feels really nervous when they're without them. Obviously that can be very innocent but just keeping an eye on that and...
That could be a sign of something different. If your child is showing signs like making their dolls play inappropriately or saying things about sex or something that's really not age appropriate, maybe just asking them more rather than just being like, my gosh, you can't say that, why did you just say that to me? So I think there's signs. In terms of disclosure,
Kristi McVee (36:57)
Yeah.
Lauren B (37:00)
It can be really difficult, especially in a family setting or if the perpetrator is known to the family, to try and sweep it under the rug, which I think with my case, it was more that they had their back than mine. think asking the child, is there anything I can do to help you? Not pushing them to say things, saying, believe you. If we can cut contact with this person,
Just saying that you believe them and trying not to sweep it under the rug for the sake of making people happy or I don't think that person can handle what happened to you. So we'll just not mention it to them or I don't want you speaking out about this. It can be really difficult if it's known to the family. Just trying to be supportive and have the child's back because they're dealing with so much already. If it's being reported to police, they're probably going through a lot.
Just being there for them and try not to sweep under the rug would be my biggest thing because that can be so harmful. Just looking out for signs mainly, inquiring more if there's really worrying things that they're doing and just having the kids back.
Kristi McVee (37:54)
Mm.
Lauren B (37:59)
is what I would say and protecting them if there's someone that you know that they've said is harming me don't see them which is so it's so common sense but it can be difficult if
Kristi McVee (38:01)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Lauren B (38:14)
You've known this person for a long time. Like in my case, my family kept seeing this person even after I disclosed it. My psychologist had to be like, you can't. You shouldn't be seeing this person. You shouldn't be wanting Lauren to see this person.
Kristi McVee (38:26)
Yeah.
Lauren B (38:27)
You just have to try and make it as safe as possible for them. If that means cutting out someone that you've known for ages, that is so hard. And I don't want to take away from how hard that is. But you've just got to show that you have their back and you want to know more. And don't push them to say things. I hope that's helpful.
Kristi McVee (38:43)
Yeah, no, and you've to remember, like, your children, like their children, the victims of this are children. It's our job as adults and parents to protect them from that, you know. It's not a child's job to take on the burden of what's happened to them because they never asked for it.
Lauren B (38:45)
That's short for him.
Yep.
100 % and I think
if someone said like, because I took this on for so long I was like, it's my fault that my family doesn't have a relationship with this person and everyone's becoming estranged, this person that meant so much to them. I really blamed myself a lot for that but I think you've just, if you can reinforce to the kid it's not your fault, this is not something that...
you that you asked for and because this horrible thing has happened we want to keep you safe. I think if you can shift the blame to the right person and not on the kid it can be really hard to
Kristi McVee (39:21)
you've done.
Hmm.
Lauren B (39:31)
Approach this but if you can try and say like it's not your fault We want to do this because we love you and we want to protect you Just shifting the blame to the right place I think that would have been very helpful But it's hard for parents like I don't think my parents were ever expecting this to happen I think they're still shocked and it's been a few years, but just showing the key
Kristi McVee (39:38)
Mm.
Mmm.
They also, there's no handbook for all of this stuff either. That's why, no. That's why I have this podcast. This is why I talk with victim survivors. This is why I talk about this stuff because just to have an idea of how to, because I don't know about your parents' generation, but my parents' generation was like, sweep it on the rug, pretend it hasn't happened. Everyone's happy families, let's all pretend. And that gets us nowhere.
Lauren B (39:56)
It's so loud, there's no handbook here.
you
100 %
Kristi McVee (40:22)
except for into more psychology and potentially self-medicating with other things. And that's why most of our parents were self-medicating. I joke about that, but they were all self-medicating. The other thing I wanted to ask was, I guess you've...
Lauren B (40:28)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (40:44)
pretty much covered all of that. You've covered how to prevent it, what to look out for, how to deal with disclosures. In your situation, it wasn't a great experience with police. Do you think that anything else would have helped other than the police's reaction could have been better and they could have taught? Even if there was not enough evidence, they could have delivered that news to you easier.
you know, less traumatising way of delivering it. Like, hey, we've looked at every avenue, we've spoken to the DPP, they don't think that there's going to be enough evidence, I'm so sorry. You know, maybe we can, if something more comes up in the later period, we'll be able to do more. But thank you, you know, how can we help you, just support you whilst this is going on? Would that have helped?
Lauren B (41:27)
Yeah, I think it's just...
I'll talk about this with my psychologist after it happened. It's just... I'm sure the police are like kind of... they don't know what to do, but I think just changing the phrasing... At the moment we don't have enough evidence, but that's not because of anything that you've done. It's just like a historical case. It's really hard to get solid quote-unquote evidence through court.
Kristi McVee (41:44)
We don't believe you.
Lauren B (41:52)
And just explaining that that doesn't mean that it didn't happen to you. It doesn't take away that And I know that that must be disappointing. Is there anyone you can speak to like is there a psychologist you can? Yeah, is there anything I can do exactly?
Kristi McVee (41:58)
Yep.
Can we contact anyone for you? How
can we support? You're so right. If they had have said it like that, would have, like, yeah, you would have been devastated, but you wouldn't have felt like they don't believe me. They think I'm a liar.
Lauren B (42:16)
Yeah, 100%.
Kristi McVee (42:18)
like so ridiculous that they said that to you. That makes me so mad. But yeah, that's definitely one of the things. But I was wondering like more about, know, if you, did you get, receive that information on your own? Like, do you think that as a victim survivor going back as an adult, you know, like the fact that you are an adult and stuff like that, or you were a team, you know, having a support person, having someone that when you're doing this stuff, you get like an advocate in to help you or
Lauren B (42:44)
That's such a good point. Yeah, having a support
person, it would be good if they had a support person that was mental health and trauma informed in some way. Like you can debrief with them. That's a good point, actually.
Kristi McVee (42:46)
No, Yeah.
Maybe that's a service that we haven't we desperately need for these cases.
Lauren B (42:58)
yeah, I think so. With kids, I mean anyone
really. How old was I, like 18? I think you're technically an adult, but you still do need that support. years later than me, having that support, checking in with the person, that would be a great service that... I know that in court there can be advocates, I think I've read that, but that's like court. But if going through the police system, if there's any...
Kristi McVee (43:08)
Yes to no.
Yeah.
Lauren B (43:24)
support person during that process that would also be helpful not just in court because that takes so long like I remember them saying it would take a month or even years to get to court and even then there's like a very slim chance of them being prosecuted. I'm inconvenient sorry yeah. A support person would be great.
Kristi McVee (43:40)
I know, it's terrible.
What if we, you know, this just popped into my head and it's just a random thought. You know, like, where was I the other day?
Even the airport in Perth, right? So I'm over in Western Australia. Even the airport in Perth has volunteers that help people. The zoo has volunteers that help people. I'm trying to think there was some place, the hospital has volunteers that help people. Imagine if we had volunteers that were like volunteering at the police station that were like advocate specialists, know, trauma-informed specialists that you know if someone came in and went to report something and was given bad news that they could like, here's where you can go and here's what you can do and here's...
Lauren B (44:17)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (44:19)
how we can support, like here's the support you can get. And you know, the police officer who's really busy could say, hey, look, I've got to go to the next job, but here is Kristi. She's going to talk you through all of the options for support and just make sure that you get home safely or make sure you're okay today before we leave you. I mean, look, that's a far-fetched idea, but I'm just thinking, you know, like so many people could use just that little bit of a kind, warm touch before they have to walk out of a police station.
Lauren B (44:29)
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, and it shouldn't
be far-fetched. think, like you said, if there's volunteers for things that are less scary, like being at a police station is really terrifying at any age. And just afterwards, making sure that the person is safe, thank God I'm safe. I don't have contact with that person, but it was just like, okay, you don't want to, we can't go through the court. Okay, see you later. But like...
Kristi McVee (44:55)
It's scary. Yeah.
Lauren B (45:10)
checking in on that person, what if something had happened and the person found out that I reported them. Like that is so dangerous. Like if there's any way to check on the person afterwards from a safety standpoint, like I was speaking about well-being a lot like in the moment, but like follow up with them, ask in the meeting, we can't take you through to court, but is there anything we can do to help you feel more safe or any safeguards we can put in place?
Kristi McVee (45:11)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Lauren B (45:38)
like that also should be got coming sense.
Kristi McVee (45:39)
Yeah, yeah, and you're right.
Yeah, like I've never like really considered it. I did and I didn't like I used to
You know, if I gave someone the news that you got, I'd be like, I'm so sorry, like, we just can't get enough evidence. It's not something that we think that we'll be able to go through court. It might not even get that far. You know, if further evidence comes up, like, we will definitely reconsider it. We can open the file again, but for now, we're going to have to close the file and just wait and hope that something more comes. I have a terrible story about this because I nearly wrote a file off.
and it was child, intra-familial child abuse with an adult and actual parent actually. And I had tried really hard, like I'd got the child's statement, like the interview, I'd interviewed the mom, I'd interviewed all of these other people, but there was not enough evidence. Like looking at it, it was just, because they couldn't pinpoint, like the memories weren't great, similar.
And I thought, nah, for sure I'm gonna have to write this off because it's just not enough. And then the day that I was, it was a Friday afternoon, the day that I was about to write it off, I got another file across my desk that was for the same offender of another child. And I went, I know. And it was like literally like the universe plopped this fricking file on my desk and I feel totally bad about it, but I cheered. Like I was like, yes.
Lauren B (46:52)
my goodness.
Kristi McVee (47:05)
Because I knew, I believed this child and I knew she'd been abused. I knew that this person had done it to her. And then, you know, I got this secondary file that just basically, and it was a completely different family, no relation. It just happened that, and it was just like handed to me. And then in the end, when I further interviewed other children around, like, you know, I did my work, did my work and interviewed everyone around in the circle of this family, there was another child that came forward.
Lauren B (47:10)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (47:33)
and it was the brother, older brother of this initial victim. yeah, so you know, like the thing is, is that it just because that, you know, I know how it feels to have to write these things off, but sometimes, you know, someone will come forward a few years later and same with your file, who's to say that a few years from now, 10 years from now, someone else doesn't come forward and they decide to reopen your file because they're like, well, now we've got.
Lauren B (47:36)
Mm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (48:00)
someone else. It shouldn't be this way but it is because you know the the system's the way it is it's not set up for survivors and victims at all so yeah.
Lauren B (48:01)
Yeah.
Yeah, and you're so right.
think, I can't remember the exact statistic, but like adult perpetrators have on average like seven victims or something. Like it's statistically likely that there's more than one victim. So in that case, obviously it's not good that there were more victims like you said, but if multiple people are coming forward about the same offender, which is the case a lot of the time, there's multiple victims that can...
be very helpful for cases and I'm really glad that obviously not that it happened to another person but there's two people who aren't connected who are saying the same thing about the same person like that is pretty damning for the perpetrator.
Kristi McVee (48:41)
No.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think he ended up pleading guilty to three victims, three multiple offences. He ended up pleading guilty because to go to trial on that, he would have had to fight pretty hard. the thing is that, yeah, it's just nuts that the system's the way it is. It's what pushed me out of the police. The system is so...
Lauren B (48:50)
wow.
There you go.
Totally. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (49:09)
wrought with problems and thinking about that support service as you leave the station I'm like why haven't we put something like that in place yet? I might make some noise about that. other than what you're doing, so you're working with what you were wearing, you're working with Lifeline which is an amazing service for people who are obviously going through mental health challenges, you're studying, what do you do for fun, for you, for Lauren?
Lauren B (49:34)
I love going out with friends. I'm doing Latin dancing at the moment, which is really fun. I'm trying to get back into reading. I definitely... I know my life is kind of all mental health and advocacy and stuff, but I do still like to have fun with my friends. Yeah, Latin dancing has actually been really healing in some way because I mean my...
Kristi McVee (49:41)
wow.
Hahaha.
Yay.
Lauren B (50:02)
I've got part South American heritage as well, so, um, and it's very like, like, it's kind of like an intimate thing in a way, like the way that you dance with people and in a way, like it was really hard for me at first, but it's actually been really healing and being able to meet guys and trust guys again, I think. Not every guy is a potential perpetrator. I think I had to kind of change the way I thought, but.
Kristi McVee (50:09)
Yeah.
Yeah.
yeah
Lauren B (50:28)
Yeah, I love my pet, my auntie's pet. So, and like seeing shows and stuff like I definitely have things that I can balance this with. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (50:30)
Yes.
Yeah, good. I'm glad
to hear that because, you know, you know, the impacts of child sexual abuse last forever. But we get to choose how we process it, heal from it, you know, move through it, do what we do with it. And every time we do something that brings us joy, makes us smile, makes us feel good, gives us that feeling inside our chest, you know, that expansion of like fun and happiness.
We're winning, like you're winning. you know, like keep doing all of those things and remember that you, well, you can't, the age-old saying, you can't pour from an empty cup. So I'm glad that you're doing some stuff for you as well because you're already giving back so much to the community in what you're doing.
Lauren B (51:22)
Thank you. Thank you. You too.
Kristi McVee (51:26)
Well thank you so much for chatting to me Lauren, I really appreciate you and yeah just keep working hard and I know that you're you know you've got a few years to go in your psychology degree but you it'll be here before you know it and then you'll be doing all sorts of other cool things with it but it's one of those degrees that feels like forever I'm sure and then when it's here you're like whoa that went fast!
Lauren B (51:43)
Thank you so much
and I'm really grateful to be able to speak today so thank you for your time and everything that you do. I'm sure you're helping lots of people. Thank you, thanks for your time.
Kristi McVee (51:55)
You're an amazing young woman, Lauren. Thank you.
Kristi McVee (51:57)
Thank you for listening to this episode. Education empowers children, strengthens parents and most importantly, prevents abuse. That's why I do this work and that's why you're here. So truly thank you. If you'd like more support or resources, follow me on social media under Kristi McVee or cape-au where you'll find all the links in the show notes. You can also grab a copy of my book, Operation KidSafe, a detective's guide to child abuse prevention at www.cape-au.com
where you'll find further resources and self-paced courses to help you in this journey of protecting your kids. If you found this episode valuable, please take a moment to leave a review or share it with someone important. Your support helps more parents and caregivers discover this important information and take action to keep kids safe. Check the show notes for extra links and support. And most importantly, thank you for showing up and taking action to protect your kids. See you next time.
