Andy Briercliffe (00:00)
You know, there are people who are there to help you and you know, I think for parents as well, if a situation arises and that is discovered, remain calm, don't freak out. You know, we've seen it where parents go, absolutely man, I'm going to take your phone, how dare you, you're grounded, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, that's going to exaggerate the situation. I know it's an anger thing. I know it's an instant reaction thing. It is.
Kristi McVee (00:11)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well it's a fear thing, it's a fear thing. Most people
get angry because they're fearful or they're scared for their children. It's not because you're, you know, or you're disappointed because you you thought that they knew better and you know you can have this conversation till you're blue in the face and it still happens.
Andy Briercliffe (00:28)
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah
Kristi McVee - Intro (00:38)
Welcome to Conversations with Kristi I'm Kristi McVee a former WA police officer, specialist child interviewer and child abuse detective. For years I worked on the front lines investigating child sexual abuse, where I saw the risks, the patterns and most importantly, the ways that we can protect our kids. Now I'm here to share that knowledge with you. This podcast is all about real conversations, giving parents, carers and educators the tools to keep their kids safe, both in person and online.
Through survivor stories, expert insights and practical advice, we'll navigate these tough topics together so you feel informed, confident and empowered. Because when we know better, we can do better and our kids deserve nothing less. CONTENT WARNING Some topics and conversations can be triggering for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised as your mental health is important. Please refer to my website and the show notes for available support services.
Kristi McVee (01:35)
Hello and welcome back to the Conversations with Kristi podcast. I'm so, so grateful to the amazing Andy Briercliffe over in the UK for jumping on to have a conversation with me about, well, we have no idea where this chat's gonna go today because Andy has such a wide range of expertise. I'll just quickly share a little bit about what I know about Andy. Andy and I connected on LinkedIn.
The cool thing about LinkedIn is that you meet so many people from many levels of expertise from all over the world and it allows us to connect because we're all very passionate about protecting kids and keeping kids safe and all of the other, you know, offshoot experiences that we have. So Andy's a global online harms consultant and I'm not going to tell you what that in details because Andy's going to share that with us, but
When I read Andy's bio, I was like, have to have him on the podcast. So the cool thing is, that the internet as amazing as it can be, connecting me and Andy here today, we're going to talk about some of the stuff that's not so great about the internet, I think. And yeah, so thanks for being here, Andy. And thanks for jumping on. And I stuffed Andy around with the time. So yeah, been amazing.
Andy Briercliffe (02:44)
Well, thank you for having me. It's absolutely pleasure to be speaking to you from the other side of the world. As you say, the wonders of technology. We've got to love it. So yeah, Andy Briarcliffe, as you say, global online harms consultant. And what that basically means is I have a really good understanding, in-depth knowledge, high level knowledge of what's going on on the internet. I'm going to say the internet like that, if I may, for the first part of it. So my focus is predominantly
on all the online harms. So that's everything from hate and abuse, intimate image abuse.
terrorism, extremism, predominantly focused on child safety and everything to do with that. That's the umbrella sort of overview of it because once we start breaking down all of that, then that's where we start going into all different sort of areas. But yeah, it's an absolute pleasure. And in fact, I'm just going to touch on something you said about LinkedIn, that, you know, there's an awful lot of negativity, certainly towards social
media and you know but this is a positivity of social media if we class LinkedIn of social media you know it does connect the world it does connect like-minded professionals and individuals we get to share the information and you know keep up to date with a lot of stuff so you know there's a lot of positivity yeah with with tech it's not all that bad
Kristi McVee (03:59)
Yeah, yeah
I agree with you. There has to be, I think there's a bit of a like a give and take with it. Like it can do all of this amazing stuff but it can take a lot too. So we've got to have that connection with ourselves as well to know when it's not doing the right thing. Like when it's not helpful for us or it's harming us.
Sadly, lot of the harms we see are to children because they're too young to be on there, some of them. Or they're not getting the right supervision or education. So that's where people like myself and you come in to let parents and people know, hey, this is what's harming our kids. We need to put up that safety gap, otherwise it's going to continue to harm them.
Andy Briercliffe (04:43)
Yeah, absolutely. mean, it's a very, very complex and challenging landscape we work in. I think I do think that a lot of people seem to think it's relatively easy. Well, let's just stop kids from seeing harmful content. But once you then break that down is what is harmful content? And there's in fact, the UK regulator, Ofcom, they've identified 130 online harms. And that's an awful lot. And then you have to break all those down as well. And but we also have to take into account
account is what what is say when we talk about hate and abuse for instance what actually is hate and abuse once we really break it down I mean certainly in
all different countries, you know, you have slang language as well, you know, different regions. So one person could be really abusive to somebody else, but you might not realize it. And we sort of expect platforms to try and deal with that. And, you know, are we saying that kids can see certain things on TV and film and things like that, where there's an awful lot of swearing and violence and sexual activity, but now we're saying they can't see it on social platforms.
Kristi McVee (05:23)
I
Hmm.
social media.
Andy Briercliffe (05:49)
So I'm not saying there's you know we should say I'll be a free for all not at all but you know what are we how are we balancing this you know and what is violence even you know you can switch on the news and see an awful lot of violence but are we saying well they can't see graphic violence on the internet so yeah it's finding this this sort of balance finding this
Kristi McVee (05:57)
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (06:10)
understanding of it all, which is quite tricky.
Kristi McVee (06:12)
Yeah.
Yeah, and you just hit the nail on the head with that and I've never considered it. But I remember sneaking like watching R rated movies when I was like a young teen and my parents didn't know I was watching late night movies that were only put on at late night because that's when they were allowed. And so I understand that. I think the dangers that we've got is that the...
The real dangers we've got is around the algorithms that once the child engages with one bit of content, it continues to give them that content or it starts putting it more and more in front of them. And so that can be one of the dangers that we're dealing with. But in your position, I mean, you've worked with the government, you've worked with regulatory boards, you've worked with platforms. What were you seeing that was coming up for you? What are you seeing out there?
Andy Briercliffe (07:03)
I it. mean, to be fair, there's so much and...
I don't know where to begin. mean, you know, certainly we have to be super attentive to the child sexual exploitation and abuse content. And even that actually is not as straightforward as we think. I mean, that is super concerning. Obviously, children's access to pornography, super concerning. Although, you know, pornography, what are we classing as pornography per se? Are we saying graphic adult content?
Kristi McVee (07:07)
What are you worried about?
Andy Briercliffe (07:33)
Compared to dare I say soft porn content and what it what is soft porn for instance, you know I asked this question the other day about what is sexy? This sounds ridiculous, but what is sexy? Is it someone posing in a way or do they have to be wearing underwear or do they have to be naked or you know? Some people this is going to sound weird find feet sexy So, you know, it's a true fact. So, you know
Kristi McVee (07:43)
You
Andy Briercliffe (07:57)
It's not as simple as that necessarily and obviously, you know, we see the rise of the I'm gonna call it the incel movement and the manosphere and things like that. So all of all of these are concerning That and they're all hot topics basically, you know, we can't deal with these individually and siloed They as I say, they all have complications to them You know, so
Kristi McVee (08:04)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Mmm.
Andy Briercliffe (08:21)
how do we do it? And you you touched on something then about when you were younger. And the thing is as well that when we go back way before the internet, young people did things they shouldn't have done.
Kristi McVee (08:26)
Mm.
Andy Briercliffe (08:33)
Now that might have been taking a, again obtaining cheeky little drinks of alcohol, you know, underage or smoking behind the bike sheds or doing whatever. This happened way before the internet. So it is, there was a ingrained into sort of growing up and they're going to do that on the internet as well. We've seen it, you know, they try to bypass the age detection, you know, bypass the age verification and all of that go on sites. They're not going to go on.
Kristi McVee (08:45)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (08:59)
which yeah is wrong but you know again what we maybe should be asking them why are doing that but it is as I say this happened way before the internet so you know it's it's historical as well
Kristi McVee (09:05)
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's part of child development is to, they're curious, they are going to try things to see what it's about. mean, everything that my own child has ever done is out of curiosity. because people are talking about it or because she heard about it or whatever. And I think that for me personally, I did delay social media access, I did delay things where I could.
Andy Briercliffe (09:15)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (09:37)
supervised where the delay wasn't obvious or some online gaming I was supervised as best I could put in parent controls but also educated so you know I think this isn't just a one
In Australia we've got the ban coming next year for social media platforms, which that, yeah. And so we've got kids out there that are saying, yes, we need this because they really don't believe that social media is safe for young people. But then on the flip side of that, we've got kids who saying, but I don't want it to be my generation. They're they're agreeing that we need this, but they don't want it to be them because they're already addicted or in there and using it. So yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (09:54)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah absolutely and you know I mentioned this at the beginning about social media and I mentioned LinkedIn you know social media is good and I'm sure some people are going to go about that but it is you know
It is good. There's so many benefits to it as we say it's brought the world closer together. It's connected people. It's you know, it's it's for relationships together people have met and got married out of it You know you go on holiday. You don't have to send a postcard anymore. You can take a picture You know and it joins like-minded individuals. So it is good and in fact, know when we look at the actual wording of it social Media, you know, what what do we mean by social? You know
Kristi McVee (10:41)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (10:57)
all of that and when we look at these platforms the reason they are so big right and so popular is we we have users have made it that because we enjoy it and we use it so you know there's this double-edged sword here and now we're saying I'll hang on a minute and you know it's the same for kids as in they they've grown up with this this is their life again huge amount of benefits for them
Kristi McVee (11:05)
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (11:20)
Yes, negatives for adults and for kids as well. So we have to try and find the balance. And, you know, certainly in Australia and, you know, other countries are talking about potential bands as well. You know, we're already hearing how kids are going to avoid it. You know, and it's been going on for years. I just like point out that it's been going on for years. Young people have avoided. Yeah, I've seen them. Well.
Kristi McVee (11:33)
Yes.
Yeah, kids know how to get around stuff.
Andy Briercliffe (11:42)
some of them have been a bit obvious, some of them not. know, I'll just change my date of birth. And you know, then they'll put their image up and you're like, you're so not 28, I'll tell you. So they've been doing that for years as well. And yes, I know there are age verification systems and tools being proposed, but now we've got to roll those out across every conceivable platform in some way. That's a cost.
Kristi McVee (11:46)
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (12:04)
you know, the big tech, yeah, they could potentially afford these, but there are smaller platforms as well, let's not forget about them. They have to do stuff as well, you know, so it's not as easy, not as straightforward as we hope. And, you know, it's all like one country introducing it, but I gave this example, which was...
Kristi McVee (12:11)
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (12:21)
Australia introduces the under 16 ban. Okay, let's accept that they are doing it So if someone from another country comes over to Australia family holiday that person's under 16 Can they access social media then? In the country?
Kristi McVee (12:34)
Yeah, well
I didn't even think about that to be honest.
Andy Briercliffe (12:38)
Yeah,
so now they're away from all their friends and family and they want to connect back home with their mates. But so, is it allowed? So would we therefore, oh you're a visitor, you're going to be allowed, but you're a resident, you're not going to be allowed. And how are they going to block it? I don't know. It's an interesting question. No!
Kristi McVee (12:52)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know either. don't know either.
initially when they were talking about the bands, I proposed, you know, who's going to be the one who pays?
in the end, like not so much the young people, is it the young people who are going to end up with a record like a court charge or it's like police are going to come out and say you're on social media, is it the parents who are going to be held accountable, who was going to be held accountable and since then they've come out and said the social media platforms are going to be held accountable if people under 16 are on them. But you know again how is and being an ex-police officer, know legislation is only as good as when it's tested in court and you don't really know
how it's gonna work until someone is charged with it. So it's interesting how it's gonna work, but I think there's a lot of things that we haven't considered yet. And there's a lot of issues, but I do know that the young people especially, there's a lot of them that are saying we need something that's gonna protect us because we're not protected online.
Andy Briercliffe (13:38)
Yeah.
Absolutely, I think another thing is I don't know quite how it works over there But you know over here and in other countries you're going to potentially have the situation where you can have a young person in a school Who's now we're to become 16. great happy I can have social media, but their classmates can't have it
So how does that work? And that could lead to cyberbullying maybe going, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, I've got it, you haven't, you know, and all of this. So yes, you're right. There needs to be something. But I think one of the issues that we're facing is this blame game. We have to blame one group of people, as in tech. Let's just blame them for everything. Whereas I think it has to be across, I'm not going to use the word blame, but...
Kristi McVee (14:16)
Yeah, yeah.
Hmm.
Andy Briercliffe (14:39)
For us to do something, it has to be across the entire landscape. Starting from education, you know, we have to improve the education, not just to young people, not just to parents, but to adults. We have this focus like, yeah, we'll educate young people, we'll educate parents. Well, what about the rest of the adults? An example I gave is, let's say...
Kristi McVee (14:51)
Hmm.
Andy Briercliffe (15:01)
14 year old Paul, I'm just picking your things at random here, has a 28 year old uncle and Paul goes round to uncle's house not suggesting anything's going on there and when Paul turns up he goes uncle can I go on your PlayStation and the uncle goes yeah fill your boots yeah well the uncle is an adult he's not had any education so
Kristi McVee (15:18)
Yeah.
Yeah, he's not restricted either.
Andy Briercliffe (15:26)
Yeah, we need to push education to adults as well. And let's remember adults, as much as they're victims in exactly the same way as young people are, they can be offenders as well. So we need to look at that. You we need to look at how, you know, certainly, yes, platforms are dealing with stuff across the board, not just big tech. We've seen instances on smaller tech platforms of all varying degrees of all sorts of stuff.
Kristi McVee (15:37)
Yes.
Andy Briercliffe (15:52)
For instance, we've seen stalking and harassment on fitness apps. And then we need to look at, how law enforcement... Law enforcement do some great stuff. Could it be better, potentially? And then we have to go across the landscape. Yeah, well, we're both law enforcement, ex-law enforcement, but they could. And it has to be then, right, outcome.
Kristi McVee (15:55)
Yeah, right.
Yes, I'm gonna say yes they could.
Andy Briercliffe (16:14)
You know, it can't always be an arrest, for instance. And certainly, are we going to go and arrest young people? No, we're not. And judges, judges and magistrates and people in that area, I think they need to be better educated as well. You know, is arresting the best punishment? You know, are there other options we can do? So if a parent, let's say a parent sets up an account for their underage child, okay, we know that happens.
Kristi McVee (16:17)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, we shouldn't be, no.
Yeah, I agree.
Andy Briercliffe (16:40)
okay are they going to be arrested are they are they just going to have a little chat or should we introduce i'm going to be a bit cautious here but should we introduce fines or should we say right okay you've done this we're going to liaise with your internet service provider and as a penalty we're going to ban you from the internet at home for say a week right see well
Kristi McVee (16:58)
Could you imagine that?
Andy Briercliffe (16:59)
Well, why not? It's a punishment, isn't it? You know, whether it's doable or not, well, it should be doable, but you know, we need to think
Kristi McVee (17:01)
Yeah, true. I don't know. That's strange.
Andy Briercliffe (17:07)
outside, we need to start thinking out the box a little bit, you know, because they say we can't just keep arresting people.
Kristi McVee (17:10)
Yeah.
Yeah.
yeah, no. then, you know, it's filling up the legal system, it's filling up the court system, it's filling up, you know.
There's better things we could be filling that cord up with especially when it comes to child exploitation online child sex sexual abuse material CSAM You know and other con and other really important things but I It's just there's so many a lot of people don't actually consider any of these they're just like ban them or not ban them or you know, like
Andy Briercliffe (17:41)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (17:42)
I hear so much and I think it's the thing is is that social media came about or like platforms and like online gaming everything has just evolved so fast that we haven't evolved enough to keep up and our and our kids they're the ones who are like you know like my daughter is constantly teaching me stuff about this and like you need to talk about this and you need to do you know this is what's happening here and I think you know and the only reason that
Andy Briercliffe (17:52)
Yeah.
Go!
Kristi McVee (18:07)
I can, you know, she talks to me about it is because I never actually said you can't have this or it was usually let's not do this yet. Let's wait a little bit longer because XYZ, I never said no, it was like no, not yet. And then, you know, we worked out a plan for when it was more appropriate and whatnot. So I think we've
Andy Briercliffe (18:13)
Yeah.
It's
quite interesting actually because you've just made me think about something. wonder whether, and I no disrespect to many people here, that I wonder whether the best educated young people are those children who are children of people who have worked in this environment. Yeah, because I have a son and daughter and when they were at school, they're growing up now, they had an online safety talk and my son kept putting his hand up all the time with the answers and the teacher
Kristi McVee (18:44)
potentially.
Andy Briercliffe (18:57)
actually like hang on a minute you know far too much here and you know he had to say well actually my dad does this so you know the next time I went to the school that you know they did say hmm you know and then I ended up going to give a talk about it so I wonder you know jokingly enough yeah it happens isn't it I hear about that all the time you know
Kristi McVee (19:04)
Yeah.
Me too, me too.
Andy Briercliffe (19:18)
But yeah, you know, that we need to improve the education as well. And, you know, you touched on CSAM there, actually, which I, I, it's not an annoyance over, but I think we need to change that as well because CSAM, as you, as you know, it's a massive breadth of stuff. It's not just always the worst of the worst, you know, and the example I give is that
Kristi McVee (19:36)
Mmm.
Andy Briercliffe (19:40)
there's images of let's say, and I can be quite clear with this, naked pictures of Bart Simpson. And that can be classed as CSUN. Now, some people share that out of humor for various reasons. There's other things that are shared out of lack of knowledge, humor, and reasons as well. So realistically, it's like...
Kristi McVee (19:48)
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (19:59)
you know, do we, we need to focus a little bit more on really the concerning stuff. And there's, we also have something called CSEM, which is child sexual exploitation material. And when you actually look at the landscape, there's an awful lot of CSEM that is really concerning, but because it doesn't fall under the CSEM category, it's therefore not reportable.
Kristi McVee (20:04)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Andy Briercliffe (20:20)
but there's
also a lot of what's considered CSAM which as I say Bart Simpson really seriously you know if you do get sexual gratification from that then I'm a little bit worried but you know so should we be looking at I think we should be moving away from this CSAM and terminology we should be saying CSEA content you know and we need to realize what we've yeah please do yeah
Kristi McVee (20:23)
Yeah.
Yeah, I've got something to add to that. Yeah, yeah,
so like in my experience and I'm sure you were in the same boat, you know, when you arrested someone or you went through their, went through their devices and stuff like that, you would have, you'd have to go through all of the photos that were on there. and so we would get photos and we would be looking for category one, two and three CSAM or, you know, and
There's and then I think there was like category four and five, but they were like but anyways and you know like the last few that I went through before I was Retired there was pictures of like and I'm sure they were Ukrainian or Russian children you know and they're just they're younger children dressed in lingerie and they're in in stuff that and they're posing but they're not naked and you know and it was like I couldn't charge the person over it because
Andy Briercliffe (21:09)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Kristi McVee (21:32)
It was literally like on the cusp, know? And it's just really difficult. I think for all of the law enforcement worldwide, don't have standard. It's not a standard for every country. It's just whatever country you're in, you either have this CSAM, CSM, SEA, you know, and it depends on where you're at.
Andy Briercliffe (21:55)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (21:58)
Like is it illegal in your country? And some countries it's not illegal.
Andy Briercliffe (22:03)
Yeah, absolutely and you know, I'm going to
go onto platforms now, you know, as I say, you know, we'd to blame, like to blame tech, tech, tech, you know, they have the same issue. They can see, you know, these profiles and the content and stuff like that. And, you know, they're not allowed to report dubious or concerning accounts, because it doesn't fit into the CSAM category, for instance, you know, trust me, I've seen accounts where I'm like, this is crying out dodgy to me. But as you say,
Kristi McVee (22:13)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (22:32)
know
just because I saw that lot where people would have you know 500,000 plus images of the youngest looking children in swimwear you know for instance and that's not illegal but you've got to ask yourself why it's creepy and dodgy but
Kristi McVee (22:41)
Yeah.
It's creepy. Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (22:49)
It's not illegal. And you know, I used to see a lot of this in platforms and I hear a lot about it as well. It's not reportable, you know, and platforms cannot report dubious or dodgy. It has to be, this is CSAM or, you know, one of the other. Yeah, it has to tick the box and any of the other criteria for these offenses as well. In fact,
Kristi McVee (22:57)
No.
this is illegal or not.
Andy Briercliffe (23:09)
you know, one of the things with regards to adult content, for instance, is that it has to be real life or perceived to be real life lack of consent, for want of a word, you know. So when you're looking at it, it's like how honestly can you determine whether there was consent or not consent to take part in that activity? I don't want to be too graphic, but for instance, rape.
Kristi McVee (23:20)
Right, okay.
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (23:32)
you know, it's you know, we one of the things is yeah it has to be it has to be rape and they're like well I can't clearly tell you whether that was
Kristi McVee (23:37)
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (23:41)
actual rape or not you know and we have to realize and I you know we have to have these open conversations people do have fantasies stroke roleplay stroke kinks about that so when you're looking at it how how are you yeah how are you determined without any context that
Kristi McVee (23:52)
Yeah, non-consensual.
Andy Briercliffe (24:00)
thing, you know, that image, that video, whatever. And these are what content moderators and specialists have to try and figure out. So it's not even easy for platforms to try to determine stuff at times. they're in, you know, the tricky situation. No.
Kristi McVee (24:10)
It's not easy for law enforcement either. know
like trying to identify the people in these videos, these photos or whatever you're... You know sometimes it takes years to identify people.
Andy Briercliffe (24:23)
Yeah, and now obviously
we've got AI. Obviously, everybody's an AI expert all of a sudden. And as you say, with the creation of the AI images, now we've got law enforcement spending time potentially trying to find a victim that doesn't exist. And that's an awful lot of hours doing that.
Kristi McVee (24:27)
Yeah.
Potentially,
Andy Briercliffe (24:44)
You know, you know, pre this, for instance, we and I know many countries have this. We used to have these vigilante groups who used to, you know, try to seek out paedophiles and offenders. And then again, law enforcement were then trying to find a victim, you know, reading about this victim's going to meet, you know, this person, this offender. And you suddenly realize actually, no, this victim doesn't exist. So, you know, we have an awful lot of time looking for things.
Kristi McVee (25:06)
Mmm.
Andy Briercliffe (25:11)
that don't exist. That doesn't help the situation. You know, we really need to be spending our time and law enforcement do. You know, there's an awful lot that goes on behind the scenes that people just don't realize. You know, and law enforcement are up against it as well.
Kristi McVee (25:11)
That don't exist. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean in
Well the platform creators and the AI creators, it's like taking less and less energy to do it, right? So it's quicker and easier to do it now than it was six months ago or 12 months ago or two years ago.
Andy Briercliffe (25:36)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (25:42)
And so law enforcement has to come up with ways to counteract that, but it's taking longer for them to keep up with what's happening than to, you know, it must be frustrating. I'd imagine over here in Australia, we've got Task Force Argos and they do an amazing job in Australia, but I'd imagine they are pulling their hair out with this stuff.
Andy Briercliffe (25:54)
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, 100%. And I think it's the same around the world. Even before all AI and everything like that, law enforcement was snowed under with stuff. And they have to prioritize. And they're now having to prioritize all these online harms, not just child safety related stuff. And if you're a victim of any of this, you want your case to be the most important. And unfortunately, law enforcement can't do that. There is a prioritization.
Kristi McVee (26:10)
Mm.
Yeah, they have to prioritize it.
Andy Briercliffe (26:30)
So things, I'm not going to say things slip but you know it's been getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and now they're having to deal with all this and to be honest I haven't actually seen or read you know much expansion for law enforcement in in this sort of area.
Kristi McVee (26:33)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (26:47)
you know, now we've got these acts coming in, whether Australia, UK or even Europe. I haven't seen any publicity around, we are now going to create a new cyber force or an online site, online force, we're now going to give police an extra 50 million dollars or pounds solely to focus on this. We're going to increase, you know, create 200 jobs solely to focus on this. I haven't seen it. Maybe they are.
Kristi McVee (27:12)
No, I haven't.
Andy Briercliffe (27:12)
doing
it but I have I would have thought we'd have seen something about it no so
Kristi McVee (27:14)
There's no extra money. There's no extra money
and no, and it's private enterprise that's actually trying to help with this by creating AI technology detectors, but even they're struggling to detect what's AI these days. it's getting, the AI is getting so good that even the platforms programs that are designed to try and seek it out and identify are struggling.
Andy Briercliffe (27:24)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (27:38)
So yeah, it's not looking good. It's not looking good for our previous cohort that work in this space. I just think my podcast is based around educating parents. And I think what we need to remember is that it seems really scary, but there is things we can do, right? There's stuff we can actually do. We've already touched on a few things, educating. We both know how much educating our kids helped them through it.
Andy Briercliffe (27:39)
Absolutely.
yeah.
Kristi McVee (28:08)
They were smarter, they made smarter choices, they were quicker to come forward because we had an open and honest communication, I'd imagine that was the same for you. And they were less scammed and tricked into things because they knew what to watch out for. Would you be agreeing with that?
Andy Briercliffe (28:17)
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah, absolutely. And you know, as you say, you know, your podcast is mainly at parents. One of the things I would say is, you know, you don't have to be intrusive to find out what your kids are doing.
you know, just have a very open conversation and be aware as a, you know, I did a talk to some parents ages ago and I had images of the logos, top 15 logos of various platforms. I did it with the young people, I did it with the parents and when I did it with the young people, they got about 12 out of the 15. When I did it with the parents, they got about five and what I...
Kristi McVee (28:57)
Yeah, they didn't know what their kids were using.
Andy Briercliffe (29:00)
Exactly and I was saying like you don't need to know the ins and outs of these platforms, know That's a whole different conversation. What I was saying is look just to be aware of if you see this logo on the screen You know what that app is, you know, that's all you need to know really Yeah, what it what it does, know and you know, just have a conversation of all you know Is that a nice app? Is it a good app? You know, you don't have to go. Well, what are you doing? You know, why you're on that?
Kristi McVee (29:13)
Mmm, what it does.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (29:25)
So that's a simple thing, just having some awareness. As you say, it's not all bad. Just having those conversations.
Kristi McVee (29:31)
Yeah, well it's not all bad if you
fill in the gaps that comes with this, right? If you're all hands off and you just hand over a device and go, it's basically you're throwing your kid in a pool and expecting them to swim. That's pretty much what I liken it to. And the one thing that you mentioned about having that, knowing what they're doing. I used to say things like, what's this one do? show me how that works.
And just be curious because it's helpful if you start this when they're younger because that kind of conversations continue as they become teenagers and it's less awkward. I mean, if your kids are teenagers, just start somewhere. yeah, I think it's really important that we just don't throw our kids in the pool and let them sink and swim, you know?
Andy Briercliffe (30:02)
Absolutely.
there.
Yeah, and I think it's important that, you know, at the end of the day, kids, the young people, followed by example. So for instance, if we're there, for instance, at the dinner table or wherever you eat, you know, and we're there as parents, adults, just sitting on our phone and the kids are on the phone and whatever, that's not really setting the best example. I appreciate we've got busy lives and especially depending on the work we're doing, you know, oh, we've to be on air and stuff like that. But, you know, if you're going to say, right,
your phone down for an hour whilst you at least have dinner you as a parent should do exactly the same as well you know not saying well mine's work it's different no you know nothing is
Kristi McVee (30:57)
No, it's not.
Andy Briercliffe (30:59)
I wouldn't say nothing is ever that urgent, maybe a few things sometimes are, but they learn from example. If you're just there scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and scrolling, they pick up on it. So we have to think about our actions and how we portray ourselves to the children as well.
Kristi McVee (31:06)
Hmm.
My teen says
to me, I'm more important than your phone when she wants to talk or when she wants me to do stuff with her. And I'm like, yep, you are, put it down. And we have a rule like no phones at the table. I think you can spend 20 minutes, even if you, as long as you're just, and we still sit down like five nights out of seven together at the table. You know, we've got busy lives and teenage and stuff, but we still spend most nights at the table. And yeah, there's no phones at the table and.
Andy Briercliffe (31:21)
Haha
Kristi McVee (31:44)
you know, my daughter calls me out and says, I'm more important than your phone, come and talk to me. So, you know, if that's the case, like it's true. Like I don't want her to ever think that anything's more important than her.
Andy Briercliffe (31:48)
Yeah.
Yeah and it's a really good point you made there that you know if your child says something to you listen you know can I I chat to you about this or even it's like have you ever heard of an app blah blah blah don't turn around and say no right that's it end of conversations just like well you know let's have a look at it together then maybe you know the other thing I was I was just going to point out there is we obviously have to touch on sextortion
Kristi McVee (32:13)
Yeah.
Yes,
Andy Briercliffe (32:20)
It's huge huge topic. Yeah And
Kristi McVee (32:21)
good point. Thank you for bringing it up.
Andy Briercliffe (32:24)
you know, I I do see a lot of you know how to tell or how to see the signs of your your child struggling, you know And they're always on the phone or they hide away in the bedroom. They spend hours on the phone You know, I'm not being funny. That's a typical teenager, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean
Kristi McVee (32:40)
Yeah, this day.
Andy Briercliffe (32:42)
they're being groomed or sextorted, okay? You know, let's have a realistic balance about that. You know, yes, there is, as a parent, you know your child. You you know when something doesn't seem right. You know when they might be super quiet or maybe change, you know, the character in some way. That's what you've got to look at. Not if they're going in the room for six hours or being grumpy or, you know, type of thing.
Kristi McVee (32:44)
No.
Andy Briercliffe (33:07)
you know and again it's having those conversations you know sextortion is well it is on the rise it's been going on for years it has become more dare I say efficient through the use of AI you know and it is a it is a serious concern so it is super important to have the conversations
Kristi McVee (33:19)
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (33:26)
with your children about, know, who are they talking to? Do they know the people they're talking to? As I say, you don't have to be intrusive. You don't have to, right, I'm going to take your phone off you to go through this. Build that trust, build that communication because even the child might not realize that actually being groomed because grooming.
Kristi McVee (33:44)
No. Good point.
Andy Briercliffe (33:47)
Yeah, grooming is actually normal conversation to begin with. Hey, how are you doing? you look lovely or how was school? what are you doing at the weekend? What music you into? That's actually legal. You know, so they might not even realize and especially if someone's pretending to be someone their own age, you know.
Kristi McVee (33:57)
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (34:07)
having that question, you actually know who you're talking to? Can you vouch? Is it a friend from school? How did you get introduced? And with that, we have to go on the flip side of that, which is that there is so much education for young people out there, whether it's in schools, it's online, it's helpful websites.
you know, young people are still becoming victims for this. So is the message, yeah, is the message not getting across? Are they not listening? Do they not want to listen? Why is it happening? know, as I say, with all this education and all this help out there, need to think about that.
Kristi McVee (34:29)
Yeah, all the time.
I think, well in my experience,
well in my experience when I talk to young people about this stuff and especially young males who have been sexed ordered, that their explanation, and you if they, like you said it right at the start, you know why, why are kids doing this behaviour? And I always tend to ask is, know, what led you to like shared nudes? No shame, no blame, I'm not pointing fingers here, I'm just interested because...
Andy Briercliffe (35:05)
Hmm? Yeah.
Kristi McVee (35:08)
It's an interesting thing that happens, you know, like, and most of the kids say to me, I was lonely. They sent it first. And this is a thing like, I always, and I always say to young people, especially at any presentations I do, I'm like, okay, if you like, think about why, and when you notice that feeling, then go seek a friend, a real friend, not someone who is, you know, who is.
you've never met before, who's sending messages, making you feel good, you know, go and seek an actual human because the people online, you just can never know if they're real. you know, like you said at the very beginning, there is people who've met their life partners and they've met great friends and stuff. So there is goods and bads, but we need to help our kids identify, when I feel like this, I need to seek this help because...
Andy Briercliffe (35:49)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (35:59)
And with regards to online and like sextortion and stuff, know most of the time these kids are it seems real and this person Bio hacks their defense, you know, they're late at night. They're in their room on there You know, they're feeling lonely or the person sends them a nude first or a video first and and then it's kind of like a trust system They've they've trusted me with it. So I've got to send something so, you know, it's not their fault. They're victims
Andy Briercliffe (36:23)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think it's super important as well that young people realize that they're the only people who are either going through this or have gone through this. It's happened for years, as I've said. You're not alone. There are plenty of resources that you can reach out to to just speak to people, whether you want to report it or speak to people. It doesn't have to be a teacher. It doesn't have to be your parent. It doesn't have to be whatever.
wide variety so don't let it get to the stage where it gets a really bad situation you know reach out have that conversation anonymously if you want you know obviously you know people are there to help you
Kristi McVee (37:02)
with someone.
Andy Briercliffe (37:06)
I'm talking to the young people here. You know, there are people who are there to help you and you know, I think for parents as well, if a situation arises and that is discovered, remain calm, don't freak out. You know, we've seen it where parents go, absolutely man, I'm going to take your phone, how dare you, you're grounded, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, that's going to exaggerate the situation. I know it's an anger thing. I know it's an instant reaction thing. It is.
Kristi McVee (37:06)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well it's a fear thing, it's a fear thing. Most people
get angry because they're fearful or they're scared for their children. It's not because you're, you know, or you're disappointed because you you thought that they knew better and you know you can have this conversation till you're blue in the face and it still happens. And the thing is is that we did stupid things like you said at the start and we just didn't have the social media or the phone, iPhone, you know the camera to record this stuff so.
Andy Briercliffe (37:39)
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah
Yeah, thank god.
Kristi McVee (37:59)
I know and we're all saying that like as parents who grew up without camera phones we're all saying thank God. So have some compassion for the kids who don't have that luxury and you know maybe just yeah have an action plan in place but one of the things that I want parents to also know about this is don't wait till it happens have these conversations way before you know before they hit high school or secondary school because this stuff's getting younger and younger.
Andy Briercliffe (38:07)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely and you know, I think as well just just to Do a range across the topics here, know, we've sort of focused on child safety and child sexual abuse material and stuff related to that but it's other stuff as well as as I say, you know, we've heard of people being stalked online and harassed and bullied online and you know, we're seeing You know as to say the incel and the Manusphere movement as well and young people are buying
dare I say harmful items, you whether that might be laughing gas or knives and things like that. So it is bigger than the child sexual exploitation landscape, you know. So, you know, if your child does receive a package, I'm not saying be suddenly open it, but you know, ooh, you see parcel today, you know, what, where did, yeah.
Kristi McVee (38:53)
Yeah.
Yeah, good point.
Where did you get that from? You don't have any money in your bank.
Andy Briercliffe (39:10)
Well exactly, you know, and we've seen this where, you know, young people are enticed by, oh I'll send you the later shoes, I'll send you this, I'll send you that. You know, just be a little bit aware about what they might be buying, you know. So, yeah, as I say, it's across the landscape of all sorts of things and, you know, as I said earlier, yeah.
Kristi McVee (39:20)
Curious.
I wanted to mention gambling as well because we have lot of kids
gambling in Australia. Which I didn't hear. I heard a report about that the other day and I was like, wow, that's not even something I would have considered.
Andy Briercliffe (39:36)
Well, no.
Absolutely.
Yeah, because it is so easy. Our lives now are instant. You know, you just, you don't have to type www.in and go and find a computer somewhere. It's instant on our phones at the moment. And again, that's like gambling. And in fact, actually, go on the flip side of that, food. Right? Now you think, hang on, that's a bit weird, but it's so easy to order junk food.
Kristi McVee (39:44)
Yeah.
Yeah.
no you don't in your hand
Hmm
Andy Briercliffe (40:06)
You know and that's not great for the health of the kids You know, it's so easy So yeah gambling health food all sorts of things You know, so how Yeah gambling as I say as you just alluded to there is a big issue. So what can we do about that? I do know Some of the yeah have conversations, you know, I know they are trying to introduce age verification in various ways whether it'll work
Kristi McVee (40:23)
have conversations.
Andy Briercliffe (40:31)
we shall see but they get interestingly enough the gambling landscape and the alcohol landscape are doing a lot lot more than the online landscape I don't know what it's like over there but certainly over here crikey the amount of TV adverts yeah for for drinking and gambling it's all over the place but yeah
Kristi McVee (40:42)
Yes.
Yes, it is. Warnings everywhere.
Andy Briercliffe (40:54)
can't really say I ever see much.
Kristi McVee (40:55)
Why don't we, yeah,
I see, I mean, here's my opinion on social media and gaming and online gaming and stuff. I feel that they can do more, like they can do more, they can do better because they've got these platforms set up with, know, and they can do things when they want to and they sort of like...
goddess hogtied in that they only have to do so much so they're only doing what they have to do. think we can, you know, they're not silly and they know that they could set up age verification possibly if they could or to have their AI components to go through and identify kids that are under 13 or whoever under 16. They could be doing that because it is a possibility, it is there, the tech is there.
But yeah, I think they could be doing a little better for everyone because I recently went on a podcast of a comedian, a dark humor comedian, and I've been told it was brave because I went on there to talk about child sexual abuse and child sexual abuse material because he made a dark humor joke about pedophilia and everyone was up in arms about it, right? And because it was a skit, you know, he's a comedian, it was a skit, made it look like he was trying to basically poach a child.
Andy Briercliffe (42:03)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kristi McVee (42:08)
And so I went onto his podcast just to explain why people probably got really upset with him because it's not a joking matter for a lot of people. It's a real life situation that's happened to them, happened to their family members. And we were talking about it he goes, on YouTube I can mark my content for 18 plus and it only gets shown to 18 plus.
I can't do that on Instagram, can't do that on Facebook or any of these other places. When there's dangerous or inappropriate content on Instagram, there was a couple of weeks ago when they got rid of the moderators, that third party moderation off Emetta, all of these videos went through for a day or two where you were seeing beheadings and you were seeing people dying and you were seeing all of this really catastrophic
content and he said you know before you clicked on the video in most of these videos it said this video is not is you know whatever giving a warning harmful content you know see why or watch video he goes I'd love to be able to put that in front of my videos because then it would be going because then you're choosing purposely to go to that video and that he put that to me and I said he goes why can't I put a tick box to say
my content is for 18 plus and so it's pushed to 18 plus.
Andy Briercliffe (43:25)
Yeah, mean,
yeah, I mean, the platforms can do a lot, better. And I think to be honest, they know they can do a lot, better. You know.
appreciate it's a business model and I appreciate it's not as we touched on before you know what's illegal in one country isn't illegal in another and what is harmful content you know obviously beheadings are super you know graphic but you know they see it in films so
are they saying well hang on you can see it in films but you can't see it on this you know and the human behavior is if you see the box saying this may contain sensitive content human behavior is happy days I will see what that is thank you so even you know yes it's a simple thing and they can say we've put a content warning on it but human behavior just overrules that but you know as I say as well that the tricky thing is that they can't
Kristi McVee (44:03)
Click, yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (44:18)
action, dubious or concerning activity as well. So can they do a lot more? Absolutely and that does all sorts of things you know even their training you know for stuff I think could be a lot lot better.
you know, how they tweet things could be a lot, better. Could I mean, I've seen some of the age verification proposals that they want to put in. It's a good start. I'll be honest, you know. But I think if I'm honest as well, I just like to point out I'm not I'm not here to be completely pro tech. I'm just telling the facts of it is of what it is that I think any platform could turn around and go. We have put
Kristi McVee (44:41)
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (44:56)
every conceivable safety measuring you know we've employed a thousand stuff like I'm just picking figure out my head we've done age verification we've done this we've done that they they will still get a slap on the wrist because guarantee you know content will get through or people say well what about this what about that what about this what about that but
Kristi McVee (45:02)
Yeah.
Yeah, I don't doubt that. I I
got caught out with YouTube. I tried to block a couple of things on YouTube when my daughter saw porn for the first time and I was like, she was only 10 and I put up, you know, I did all this stuff, thought I'd done it. I was still able to see bestiality on YouTube and I thought everything was locked down. I just, I think.
Andy Briercliffe (45:31)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (45:37)
The main thing is they're trying, but I think at the current environment we've got, there's like literally they've taken the handbrake off and they're just allowing whatever. It's gonna be an interesting place, but ultimately parents need to take some action. They need to be involved. They need to be in there talking to the kids, talking to them about this stuff.
Andy Briercliffe (45:47)
Yeah.
We have
to start somewhere and the starting point has to be education. But I say the fix is right across the entire landscape. We're not just blaming parents, we're not blaming kids, we're not blaming tech. It has to be across, it has to be. It's a societal issue and we have to deal with it in a societal way. Just going back to tech then, I tried to report some stuff and I've heard it from other people. We've tried to report stuff on particular platforms.
Kristi McVee (46:10)
law enforcement. It's a big...
Andy Briercliffe (46:28)
complicated and it's a simple thing here's a piece yeah yeah well
Kristi McVee (46:29)
It is.
It always comes back as being not against guidelines when it's nudity or something. I'm like, come on.
Andy Briercliffe (46:40)
Even if someone is, let's say, a victim of intimate image abuse, and they report it. So they're already stressed, they're worked up. And that can be a young person, that could be an older person, an adult. A, you're waiting then, oh my God, this is the worst thing that happened. Then you're waiting and it's going through the process. And then as you say, you might get the thing, we have reviewed this and it has not violated our policy. Oh, well, that's just brilliant, isn't it? So that...
Kristi McVee (46:52)
anyone.
Yeah, it's stressful.
Andy Briercliffe (47:09)
Yeah, and that can have a mental health impact on people as well. So yes platforms can do a lot not better But we have to realize it has to start somewhere and that that is educating everybody young people parents carers adults Because at the end of day as well adults From from what I've seen they're the main protagonists of all of this content at the end of the day
Kristi McVee (47:24)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (47:34)
you know somebody has to post content make that content add a comment to a post you know it might be abusive or something something like that someone it's a user that does that I've not seen that auto-generated anywhere someone has to do it at the very beginning so that is a user and that is young people and adults as well so we have to educate at the very very beginning
and as well as trying to fix the rest of it as well it seems quite easy but don't know why we haven't done it yet
Kristi McVee (48:02)
Well, we've got all
the answers and they should just listen to us. I just think, yeah, we can do better and I think parents are really scared for their kids and scared for the future in a lot of cases. I personally think, like I've said multiple times, where you can educate, where you can supervise, where you can create boundaries in place, your family.
It's just it does have a massive impact. dangerous content can have a massive impact. So Andy, if you were to leave any other resources or like websites or something that you go, now this is something to check out for a parent. Is there anything that you can recommend?
Andy Briercliffe (48:41)
crikey well there's a there's a to be honest there's a vast array of stuff honestly well I have a list and it's 400 odd lines long so
Kristi McVee (48:47)
I've thrown that at you and it's liked so much.
Andy Briercliffe (48:54)
Yeah, exactly. And that's a global thing. And it's really interesting actually because it really covers a whole breadth. It's everything from child safety smartphones to board games for child safety to websites that produce a lot of stuff. You know, certainly for Australia, you know, you've got an e-safety commissioner, you've got NetSafe, you've got people like yourself.
Kristi McVee (49:03)
Mmm.
Andy Briercliffe (49:18)
You know, there's a vast array I could keep going on and on and on and I know a lot of people over that You know and I could name ones over here in America as well The one thing I'd say is you know for anybody who is listening Certainly reach out to Kristi. I'm more than happy if people want to seek me out more than happy you know as I say You know
reach out ask advice you know for whatever it is that sounds really interesting could you tell me a bit more about that you know the one thing I would say to parents and adults as well is if you do want a bit more further information firstly push your school push your kids school if they're not doing it make them do it okay I mean I think it's a legal requirement but it is over here but you know make sure all right
Kristi McVee (49:46)
Mm.
They should.
It's not yet. schools can choose whether they
but I think it's in the curriculum like they do some like teachers teach the curriculum So there is some curriculum around it, but it's it's not always adequate
Andy Briercliffe (50:07)
Yeah.
But again...
Well again, interestingly enough, know, ask who does it. If you go to school, just say who does your training? Because I've seen it here where it's a little bit uncoordinated. I've heard that history teachers or the maths teachers might give it. you know, so ask who's going to do it. You know, what do that school have in place?
Kristi McVee (50:27)
Yeah, same.
Well they're not experts are they?
They're not experts in that area. So... Yes, yes.
Andy Briercliffe (50:34)
They're not and all due respect to them. They're doing their best I just like to point out
also if you do want to seek advice one thing I'm gonna say is if you do want to seek advice from external people Check just check their backgrounds and I'm not suggesting anybody's dubious But it's always best to have a look at those people. What have they done before? You know both you and I have been ex-law enforcement. We've been there seen it done it I I know of other people who are who have done that as well
I don't want to sound disrespectful to some people but we have the knowledge. There's a lot of people who are doing the talks, doing the education who might not have either spent many years doing it or have not worked in that environment. Great, I applaud them for doing it but I would say to parents just make sure you know because there's an awful lot of misinformation out there.
and some people will ram down the throat such as like do not let your kids on snapchat do not let them on tiktok it's full of paedophiles well where are you basing that information on you know so
Kristi McVee (51:25)
Mmm.
Andy Briercliffe (51:38)
You know, look at, you do want further talks or you do want further information, just, you know, don't just Google and go online safety expert. You'll get a myriad of people. You know, look for people with the background who've been in this for years and years because we know. You know, so.
Kristi McVee (51:46)
Mm.
Well yeah and we're probably going
to have a little bit more of an all-round opinion on it like you know we're not going to like you said be all negative we're going to have our you know we're going to have obviously we're going to have reasons why we believe what we believe we're going to say look this is a bit tricky but this is you know you can mitigate this or reduce that harm by doing xyz or you know we
Andy Briercliffe (52:17)
Well as we said at the very
beginning social media is good it's there for the right reasons it's like anything you know where there's good there's going to be bad and that's the same in society so you know I am pro social media I use it we met on LinkedIn fact you know
Kristi McVee (52:21)
Mm.
Andy Briercliffe (52:34)
So I'm not going to be all anti anti anti anti whereas some people might be. We're going to take a very balanced unbiased view. We're going to tell you how it is. We're going to tell you it's not as easy as you think it is. Yeah. You know. So we'll we'll tell you the facts. At the end of the day as a parent we cannot tell you how to parent your child.
Kristi McVee (52:43)
going to be real. Yeah.
have
Andy Briercliffe (52:54)
you know,
Kristi McVee (52:54)
to.
Andy Briercliffe (52:54)
you know your child you know their characteristics, you know their mannerisms some parents, let's be fair, don't really give a who some parents, yeah, some parents are a bit more proactive and we have to realise that's life as well so we're not going to win them all and again, we accept that we know that we could
Kristi McVee (53:02)
Yeah I know I was about to say that. Give a lot of hoots.
You
Andy Briercliffe (53:18)
ram the same message down teenagers throats about don't do this don't talk to strangers don't do this you know we know teenagers are going to do it that's life as well you know some some kids will just switch off some some will pay attention you know some will want to learn more
you know so again that that's life and we have to accept that so it's all about keeping the awareness up keeping the education up as I say as you mentioned if if people want to know what's out there reach out ask whether it's a board game or watch or where can I go for resources and you know and and trust me there's more than enough webinars and seminars if you want to
see something about a particular topic.
Kristi McVee (54:03)
Yeah, yeah. There's a lot,
there's, there's so much to learn here and we're in Australia, we've got the eSafety Commissioner there. They've got like fact sheets and guides and you know, you can look it up there. Common Sense Media is a good one for you know, real life information like parent reviews, child reviews, children reviews and I'm thinking that what else and obviously Andy knows a lot about this stuff because you've been doing it a long time Andy.
Andy Briercliffe (54:11)
Yeah.
Yes, yes.
far too long far too long and
you know it it I mean it's one of those
Kristi McVee (54:31)
What are you doing now by the way?
Andy Briercliffe (54:34)
I'm sure well, it's funny actually I sit in this funny old part of the landscape So I will go into schools and do education schools and adults. I will work with charities I work funny enough with law enforcement. I work with platforms big and small. I work with NGOs All sorts of different things for instance. I've worked with platforms now. We've got the new acts in place Okay, the online safety act and the Internet safety act over there, you know platforms
being told you must do this you must have this in place and they're very much going right but what what exactly how do we do that so you know I've helped platforms look at their policies I've trained staff you know how to spot CSEA how to spot terminology one of things I've done in the past is user behavior analysis looking at those patterns looking at those trends
Kristi McVee (55:05)
How?
Andy Briercliffe (55:22)
So I've done that. I work with law enforcement and others to look at the highest level risks out there. You know, when we talk of the worst of the worst, there's a huge
amount of organized chaos for want of a better word out there and I help them to maybe find out what's going on the patterns the trends how people are chatting what they're talking about you know I actually help as a coordinator so I'll hear that funnily enough some law enforcement in Australia doing something but I've heard that also law enforcement in America doing the same thing right
Kristi McVee (55:38)
Hmm.
Andy Briercliffe (55:58)
I put them in touch and they're both like yeah it's like we didn't know that but you know stuff stuff like that help law enforcement you know law enforcement
Kristi McVee (55:59)
they should be working together.
Andy Briercliffe (56:07)
Yes, as you say, you've got the Argus team over there, we have teams over here. But sometimes it falls down to individual teams and individual police stuff. And they're like, I've got this, don't know what to do with it. Or it can be like, we're not getting this information from such and such a platform. It's annoying, we need this for investigation, why are we getting knocked back? So I'll speak to them and say, well, let's have a look at it. if you reword it in this way, it might help.
Kristi McVee (56:17)
I don't know what to do. Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah, right.
Andy Briercliffe (56:34)
things like that. As I say, going to schools, working charities, intelligence research, as I say, hearing that more higher level conversations going on, you know, how criminals are utilising or... And also, the other part of that is what's called trust and safety. I'll just touch on this briefly.
Kristi McVee (56:44)
Sounds like you got your fingers in every pie.
Andy Briercliffe (56:54)
Trust and safety is the term given to predominantly social media but more platforms and they are the teams that do all this work.
and they can be outsourced companies that deal with content moderation which is a tough old job, tell you that. They can be the internal teams at a wide variety of platforms. They're the ones who have to design the policies. They're the people who design the tech, the legal teams, the operational teams. And that is a very complicated and challenging job right across, you know, we here, certainly in America, sorry, safety by design, you know, it's a big
Kristi McVee (57:32)
Yes.
Andy Briercliffe (57:32)
Talk at the moment,
but yeah the the product people who are doing this are now having to think like safety by design They might they are they have tech backgrounds Predominantly, they don't have like the backgrounds you and I have so it's it's
Kristi McVee (57:37)
What is that?
Policy, safety,
law enforcement, what's illegal, what's not illegal.
Andy Briercliffe (57:49)
Yeah,
yeah, so it's talking to them and they'll say, well, hang on, we can't do that or we can do that. But if we do that, this is going to happen. This is going to happen. And that's for the biggest to the smallest platform. know, and so, so there's all of this that falls under trust and safety. And when we talk about trust and safety, in fact, it's bigger than platforms. So,
Kristi McVee (58:10)
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (58:12)
funnily enough the banking institutions they fall under this now because a lot of
payments for certain things whether it's fraud or scams or blackmail or is it go to the financial systems what whatever they might be we have online abuse in sport so that impacts all the sports that are out there you know these individual players whether they're grassroots or professional or referees or players the amount of abuse we look at the music industry as well we've got a copyright we've got you
Kristi McVee (58:21)
is online.
Mmm.
Andy Briercliffe (58:43)
know deep fake stuff now well not now it's been going on for a while you know so the music and the film industry and the TV industry they're all affected by all of this as well so it's a huge huge massive landscape that we have to try to figure out and just actually I will just touch on this that going back to parents and young people basically one of the most important things don't believe everything you see on the
Kristi McVee (58:45)
Yeah, wow.
Wow.
Andy Briercliffe (59:12)
you know please please please yeah don't you know
Kristi McVee (59:13)
the internet. I say that to my daughter all the time. Where'd you hear that from? If it's from TikTok
go and do your research.
Andy Briercliffe (59:21)
Well I'd say if it's from anywhere go and do your research. Yeah don't believe everything and even when I say that and I'm not just talking about news or you see a celebrity endorsing something it's even like I've seen it over here people will post a picture and say check out my new car and people go how do you afford that and there's this keep it what we call keeping up with the Joneses well if they've got a new car I think we should go and change our car.
Kristi McVee (59:24)
yeah, I said that as well.
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (59:46)
could be a rental car or that could be they've just passed a showroom yeah or they've just walked past it you know it really is as simple as that don't believe everything you see you know and and kids are the same you know check out my new jacket you know latest jacket look at you know they're probably in the shop they just tried it on to be honest with you you know or if a truck
Kristi McVee (59:48)
or they would just walk past it.
I talk about that with my teen all the time.
Andy Briercliffe (1:00:07)
Yeah, you know,
Kristi McVee (1:00:07)
Yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (1:00:08)
if one of their friends has gone, I've got this latest jacket, you know, this was $900 jacket, you know, da da. And then the child comes home to the parent, winch, winch, winch. It probably isn't. You know, it's probably either a knockoff or it probably only costs about $200 or something. Don't believe everything whether it's...
Kristi McVee (1:00:24)
Yeah, everything.
Andy Briercliffe (1:00:27)
you know, and that goes for adults and that goes for young people as well, that it's so easy to manipulate, it's so easy to seem convincing, know, influences. Don't believe everything the influences are saying, you know, that's another thing.
Kristi McVee (1:00:42)
Yeah and our young people are very
influenced you know like they are a very influenced generation and we are too. I mean I say to my husband says my husband says the same thing he's like they've got all of these new things why can't we afford these new things and I'm like mate are they really theirs like we stop stressing yeah yeah.
Andy Briercliffe (1:00:48)
Yeah, absolutely.
Prove it, prove it. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (1:01:02)
And, but secondary to that, like I have the conversation with my daughter, you know, she'll say, did you know such and such? Like she'll hear something on TikTok or something or wherever she's heard it. And I'll say, where did you hear that? Have you done your homework? Like, don't just trust. think one of the stats she came up with is like, you've walked past about three murderers in your lifetime or something like that. you've, you know, or one of those weird stats.
Andy Briercliffe (1:01:25)
yeah, yeah, it's a one in, Yeah.
Kristi McVee (1:01:29)
And I was like,
okay, that sounds a bit, well, I mean, I'm not saying it's not true, but have you actually looked this up? where's this research come from? Like, if they're not quoting where the source was from, like, I don't trust any of that. So yeah, just having those conversations.
Andy Briercliffe (1:01:42)
Well, in fact,
yeah, in fact, I can't remember the exact figure, but this was going back a few years and it's probably changed and there's probably something, there was something like that that said one in, is it one in eight people or one in six people has an interest in children, know, sexual interest in children.
Kristi McVee (1:01:59)
Yes, in Australia. It was an Australian
study.
Andy Briercliffe (1:02:02)
Yeah and I was working in law enforcement at time in a dedicated CSEA online team and there were I think about 35 of us there and we're like right so if there's one in six and there's 35 of us here and it's the same it like it would have been over the same over there it's like so how many of us is there and everyone's like no so you know what what how can you work that out in theory and you know
Kristi McVee (1:02:20)
There's a few of us who are interested.
Andy Briercliffe (1:02:27)
I'm not saying that wasn't based on research but doesn't quite add up to me. You know and as I say don't believe everything we've seen influences from all sorts you know we there was a recent one on I think it was Netflix about
young female who did a thing about cancer didn't she she it was about you know that's it I knew it was Bell something I couldn't remember again you know and she's not the first in fact there was another one last week so again you know these influences these celebrities whoever you know or
Kristi McVee (1:02:45)
yeah yeah, Bill Gibson.
Andy Briercliffe (1:02:59)
The best one I try and tell young people is if something's too good to be true like buy these new trainers a dirt cheap price or we had a big one with Taylor Swift tickets get your Taylor Swift tickets half price you know VIP access you know if it's too good to be true guarantee it probably is
Kristi McVee (1:03:09)
Mmm, same.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think that was a good place to like finish the chat because we could be talking forever. Because we love talking about this stuff. And we said that at the very beginning, you know, we could talk about this forever and over and over. So Andy, if I know that you've got like that list of 400 plus things on everything, is it, are you sure? You're happy to?
Andy Briercliffe (1:03:25)
Absolutely.
I'll share it with you. I'll share it with you. Yeah,
yeah, it's all open. It's all open. It's all public access. It's just all in one place. So it's fine.
Kristi McVee (1:03:44)
fantastic. What
I'll do is I'll share the link in the show notes. So that would be amazing. And Andy is located on LinkedIn, works all over the, he's got his hands in every pie in regards to this space. I think you must be working your butt off. So yeah, thank you for taking the time to sit down and chat with me and to just talk about, you know, the fact is...
Andy Briercliffe (1:04:02)
Haha!
Kristi McVee (1:04:09)
it's not going away, we need to adapt, we need to make it easier for ourselves but also, you know, have the best, give our children the best opportunities which is us being their best education. So thank you so much.
Andy Briercliffe (1:04:21)
Well, it's
been a pleasure and thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to come and talk with you, especially as I say, other side of the world, we've got to love technology. yeah, I think my ending thing is like we've talked a lot about negatives here, but there's also a lot of positives. Tech's here to stay, let's embrace it.
you know it's going to advance we know this it's not all fearful you know and again if things go wrong you're not alone reach out you know to all these people and resources that are out there but embrace it we're here doing tech you know everything
Kristi McVee (1:04:56)
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah thanks, Andy. And yeah, I'll share everything in the show notes. So thank you for being on Conversations with Kristi. It was a good conversation.
Andy Briercliffe (1:05:08)
Thank you.
Kristi McVee (1:05:08)
Thank you for listening to this episode. Education empowers children, strengthens parents and most importantly, prevents abuse. That's why I do this work and that's why you're here. So truly thank you. If you'd like more support or resources, follow me on social media under Kristi McVee or cape-au where you'll find all the links in the show notes. You can also grab a copy of my book, Operation KidSafe, a detective's guide to child abuse prevention at www.cape-au.com
where you'll find further resources and self-paced courses to help you in this journey of protecting your kids. If you found this episode valuable, please take a moment to leave a review or share it with someone important. Your support helps more parents and caregivers discover this important information and take action to keep kids safe. Check the show notes for extra links and support. And most importantly, thank you for showing up and taking action to protect your kids. See you next time.
