Colleen Murphy (00:01)
So the foundation for all of this has been I really am passionate about sending the message to children that they can always trust their body to tell the truth. And I know you know what I mean by that. It's about trusting your instincts and knowing that
You can always count on your body even when you can't trust your environment. And those little signals are the truth every single
Kristi McVee - Intro (00:31)
Welcome to Conversations with Kristi I'm Kristi McVee a former WA police officer, specialist child interviewer and child abuse detective. For years I worked on the front lines investigating child sexual abuse, where I saw the risks, the patterns and most importantly, the ways that we can protect our kids. Now I'm here to share that knowledge with you. This podcast is all about real conversations, giving parents, carers and educators the tools to keep their kids safe, both in person and online.
Through survivor stories, expert insights and practical advice, we'll navigate these tough topics together so you feel informed, confident and empowered. Because when we know better, we can do better and our kids deserve nothing less. CONTENT WARNING Some topics and conversations can be triggering for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised as your mental health is important. Please refer to my website and the show notes for available support services.
Kristi McVee (01:28)
Okay, and welcome back to Conversations with Kristi podcast. I'm very excited to be talking to Colleen Murphy all the way over in the US. Colleen and I connected through LinkedIn as most of my guests seem to be coming through for me. I think that's the most amazing part about the internet these days is that we can connect with so many people all over the world. And Colleen is an amazing victim advocate for over in her area.
And she's created a few things and I'm not gonna tell anyone about it because I will not do it justice. But when I was reading Colleen's bio, it was really interesting how you got into this work. And I'm gonna let you explain that story, Colleen. So I don't wanna ruin it for anyone, but I'm just really grateful to connect with you again, Colleen, and just have you on the show. Thank you so much.
Colleen Murphy (02:18)
Likewise, thank you. And it's awesome to connect with people from around the globe. And it's so interesting how we're all saying the same things. So I'm always happy to unite and hear what's going on in other parts of the country and learn from each other.
Kristi McVee (02:20)
Hahaha
Hmm
Yeah, thank you. likewise, and the cool thing is that the fact that we're all saying the same things and echoing each other means that it's reinforcing what we're saying. If you're saying it over there and I'm saying it over here, then it's just reinforcing that this is exactly what we need to be doing. And your focus is on prevention. So Colleen, tell us all about how you started and how you're here. And yeah, I want to know it all.
Colleen Murphy (03:06)
Cool. So it's not what most people would think. I've actually been a hairdresser for the last 25 years. And what I learned throughout that career was that when people come into the salon atmosphere on a regular basis, so we're seeing clients every four to six weeks, sometimes for, you know, 20,
20 years, you get to know people. And when people sit in the chair to get their hair done and they've known you for that length of time, they get really comfortable opening up. And never in a million years when I got into hair and working with the public did I know that I would be listening to so much disclosure.
Kristi McVee (03:56)
Hmm.
Colleen Murphy (03:58)
And I really wasn't trained for that. But I'm grateful that it happened and unfolded the way that it did because I always tell people if someone is comfortable enough to disclose something that sensitive with you, that is the first time they can open up and begin healing. And so
Kristi McVee (04:00)
Mm-hmm.
Colleen Murphy (04:25)
I remember being in panic mode the first time a woman shared that with me. I wasn't panicked over what she was sharing. I was panicked about, I gonna say the wrong thing and screw this up? Because I don't wanna hurt her any more than she's already been hurt. And so because of that feeling of helplessness in that moment and me
I didn't look like a deer in headlights with her story. I went home and started studying and reading ferociously. Like how are therapists doing this? And you know, what do people that work in the field, what do they do when they hear disclosure? So I started practicing and it just sort of grew from there. So here I am.
I'm slowly inching out of the salon and into prevention full time, but it's been a blessing to have that experience and it's unfortunate that the pattern is so prevalent.
Kristi McVee (05:27)
Yeah, so much so. One of the interesting things about what you just said is that deer in headlights, that panic, you know, like, my gosh, someone's telling me something really important. I don't want to wreck this for them or upset them or hurt them. My daughter, who was 16 at the time, she came home from school and she's been hearing me talk about this stuff all her whole life almost. She actually said the same thing. She goes, mom, people are telling me things and I don't know what to say and how to.
help them. So it's a universal problem for a lot of people where they want to honor that person because they've trusted them enough to tell them, but they don't want to mess it up. And I think that's where some people, they do freeze, it can come across as if they're not really listening or understanding or they don't care. Whereas I think most people, most empathetic people in the world are just scared to mess it up.
Colleen Murphy (06:19)
Exactly. Yeah, so I had to step in front of the mirror and actually practice a neutral face because I was the further I got into this as you know if you work in prevention you work in disclosure and so you never want to scare somebody away when they're trying to share so I'm getting the hang of it and I'm just grateful to learn from
Kristi McVee (06:40)
Yeah.
Colleen Murphy (06:44)
other people that have been doing this a lot longer than me.
Kristi McVee (06:48)
I love that you've been practicing your neutral face. I mean, you're right that neutral face is how we maintain. you know, if you have this face of shock and awe, or if you're like terrified or whatever, it could stop them from further disclosing or sharing. So you're right, practicing that. And I must've got good at that over the years, but still, even now I get like totally my face takes over and I've gotten a very expressive face at times.
Colleen Murphy (07:12)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (07:14)
So you went from hearing disclosures in the salon to then turning it around into a prevention education similar to what I do in Australia. tell me about that journey because that's completely like you went and said, I see something that needs to be done here. I'm off. I'm going to go do something.
Colleen Murphy (07:31)
Yeah, so I started a program that I call My Body Tells the Truth, or as the children say, MBTTT, because they're all about acronyms and shortening. Everything is LOL and OMG, so I was like, okay, I'm gonna go with MBTTT, because it's easy for a little one to remember, and it stands for something we can all connect to.
So the foundation for all of this has been I really am passionate about sending the message to children that they can always trust their body to tell the truth. And I know you know what I mean by that. It's about trusting your instincts and knowing that
You can always count on your body even when you can't trust your environment. And those little signals are the truth every single time. And those are the things I want children to investigate when they have an opportunity to speak with their safety team. I always encourage them to say if there's ever an experience that
you thought, and this is a word children connect with a lot, I use the word weird. That's what I really want you to put your detective hat on and like dig into whatever it was that made you think or feel, well this is kind of awkward or this is weird. No matter what it is, even outside of abuse prevention. I'm like, you should always ask questions about anything that makes you feel weird, so.
Kristi McVee (09:07)
Yeah.
Mm, no, good. It's a good way because that's the terminology they would use. That's what they would think. So we can't just always give kids the language that we want them to use. We have to adapt and hear their language as well and use their language. And that's a really good, that's a really good skill to have is to adapt to the language of the person that you're speaking to. And good investigators, good people who are good at connecting with people will.
will change their dialect or dialogue to fit. So if you're talking to little kids or kids, even teenagers, you'll fit, you'll change your language to fit. that's really, that's a really good point about connecting with young people and children is to change your language for them.
Colleen Murphy (09:43)
Exactly.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I find that sometimes the adults, we can be really good at trying to decide what's best for the children. And then when I actually get in front of them, they build the curriculum for me and their language is what they connect to. So I could try and distract them with what the adults find comfortable, but what actually sticks with them is when I...
Kristi McVee (09:55)
Yeah.
Colleen Murphy (10:22)
use the language they want.
Kristi McVee (10:24)
Yeah, yeah, because that's what they understand best. yeah, with little ones. so with your MBTT program or what you're teaching, I really love that my body tells the truth. Like you're 100 % right. And I was funny that you bring this up. I was walking from my car into my office and I was thinking about, know, I get asked all the time, how do we protect our kids in the schoolyard? How do we protect them from
Colleen Murphy (10:28)
Yeah, especially a little kid. Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (10:52)
know, potential abuse outside of when they're with us. You know, we can try and we do our best when they're with us, but what about when they're not with us? And the truth about it is, is for them to trust themselves and when things make them feel weird or uncomfortable or whatever the language they want to use is, you know, whenever that feeling comes about, that's how we teach them to listen to it, to investigate it and to act, you know, walk away, tell a safe adult, you know, do say no.
scream no, run away, whatever it is that is their reaction or what the reaction is required. So yeah, so it's so, so true. I definitely, yeah, that's a question I'm getting a lot at the moment about how do I help my kids when they're not with me? You know, I can protect them from people when they're with me, but what about when they're at school or early childhood or whatever. So your program is designed for, for an up, is that right? Yeah. So you.
Colleen Murphy (11:45)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Kristi McVee (11:47)
So yeah, you've gone from a hairstylist 25 years and now you're out teaching abuse education basically and prevention education. So tell me about the program and what you teach the kids about.
Colleen Murphy (12:00)
So I was the type of kid in school that would have been labeled ADHD. I grew up in, I was born in 79, so I'm old. But this was before the internet. So I definitely would have been the child that was labeled ADHD and probably medicated. But because of that, I...
Kristi McVee (12:07)
Ha ha ha.
Not that old.
Colleen Murphy (12:22)
do know what it's like for some kids in the classroom who don't want to sit still. So I like that my program is interactive and gets children engaged because it's not just you're sitting in a classroom or you're listening to me in the gym with the whole school around you. It's you're going to get up, you're going to work with teams, we're going to go through exercises together.
I get them really comfortable with situational awareness and we do a lot of things that I would call puts them in the detective seat where I want them to spot what seems off to them and it gives them the power to be in the driver's seat, if you will, and just have them practicing spotting things that seem slightly off.
Kristi McVee (13:00)
Mmm.
Colleen Murphy (13:17)
And I don't do that by going in and attacking sexual abuse. I play fun, engaging games that are teaching them about body language and how to spot with what someone is saying without actually hearing them, things like that, to just get them interested before I deliver some of the more serious messages.
probably what you're familiar with where we talk about a safe secret versus a not safe secret, when to talk to your safety team, things like that.
Kristi McVee (13:48)
Yep.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. that sounds awesome.
Colleen Murphy (13:56)
Yeah,
like I said, I love things that are interactive, especially in a world full of technology where kids are used to the TikTok. It needs to be quick and to the point, this helps them stay focused.
Kristi McVee (14:01)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And
I think also role playing, you know, getting them to think like a detective. man, like, honestly, that's the one thing that I always said to my daughter when she was younger. I'm like, you know, if you're seeing something, be your own detective and investigate what, you know, whether it's something that you think, that's really cool or, and you know, I always, I don't know about you, but.
I always say to people when they tell me something that sounds outrageous or like not true, I'm like, where did you find that information out from? Is it TikTok? And if it's TikTok, have you done your homework? Don't just go through the first page, know, keep researching because that's the other thing we need children and people in general to think critically about what they're seeing and hearing, especially in today's society with AI and stuff like that.
Colleen Murphy (14:43)
Yeah.
Yes
Kristi McVee (15:00)
Unfortunately, us millennials get caught out thinking things are real on online and then we're like, that's AI. I wish it all had a like a little stamp on it so that we could tell when it's AI or not. I said this to my husband and my daughter the other day, I'm like, it needs a stamp and it needs to be done like a little watermark that says, like, so we know it's AI because this is ridiculous. But yeah, I think that's so cool. And then
Colleen Murphy (15:09)
Right? I know.
I agree. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (15:25)
When
you do when you go out and you're talking to these kids, are you getting disclosures as well? Because this this is the dam like not the dangerous situation that us as educators come into is that we can be out there and because we are talking about it openly with that with children and we're a stranger, but we're also seeing safe, we can get those disclosures, right?
Colleen Murphy (15:45)
100 % and sometimes it's not necessarily a disclosure about sexual abuse per se, but I just had a disclosure recently for a child who was living with someone that is punching them. And it was sad because, you know, we found out that this individual is dealing with alcoholism and things of that nature. so, you know, even though the topic
Kristi McVee (16:02)
Hmm.
Colleen Murphy (16:13)
was geared towards the sexual abuse side, this child still felt comfortable enough to come forward with a different type of abuse. And I was glad that he did. It's interesting the way kids and even sometimes adults come out with their disclosure. It's not always what you would expect, especially if it's accidental.
Kristi McVee (16:25)
Yeah, yeah.
Hmm.
Colleen Murphy (16:38)
I even I refer to I've had a few I've noticed this with men. They can be unique in that and this this is like from the salon per se so. They'll almost say it like it's a joke like you know what I'm saying. They'll lightly be like yeah I didn't uncle that was a creep growing up so that was fun and then they quickly changed the subject and you're like oh hold on what.
Kristi McVee (17:02)
Yeah.
Colleen Murphy (17:08)
Let's talk a little bit about that. yeah, sometimes people will subtly hint at it before they fall out, you know, sure.
Kristi McVee (17:08)
Yeah.
Mm.
Well,
they're testing the waters. It's interesting. They're testing the waters to see what kind of reaction they'll get. And if you don't engage in it, like they'll just move on, right? If you react poorly, they will shut down and just make it, I was just joking. But if you give them a little bit, then maybe they'll open up and share. And it's the same with children, to be honest. Children can do that as well. They'll throw out a small snippet of information and then one see,
And it's almost like they're waiting for someone to pick up the bait. They're desperate for someone to pick up the bait. They just don't know who to trust with it.
Colleen Murphy (17:49)
Yes.
That's exactly right. Yeah, that's exactly right. And then sometimes I'll hear disclosures from children about their siblings, not that their sibling is abusing them, but I listened to one recently where the older sibling is, from the sounds of it being sextorted online, and because they share a room, the younger brother realized after listening to the program,
Kristi McVee (17:55)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Colleen Murphy (18:20)
that his big brother had this happening to him. And I thought, my gosh, like here he is disclosing for his big brother. But again, awesome, awesome and horrible at the same time, right? Glad that it came out, but how sad that the family's going through that.
Kristi McVee (18:29)
protecting him.
I know.
100%, 100%. So we thought everything that you've seen and heard, and I read in your bio that you're married to a first responder, is that right? Yeah, Yes, it does. I mean, not police though, is that he's a firefighter or like a paramedic?
Colleen Murphy (18:48)
Yeah, that adds a whole other layer.
Yeah,
he's a firefighter, but he's also a fire investigator, which you understand that brain very well.
Kristi McVee (19:03)
yeah.
We're suspicious of everything and everyone.
Colleen Murphy (19:09)
Yes,
yes. But what's so interesting is that he's really good at figuring other people out. But then, and I mean this in a loving way, when it comes to his wife, he misses a lot. I'm like, really? You had no idea what I wanted for my birthday, but you could tell me that the guy up the street, you know, has red flags and you've only met him once, you know?
Kristi McVee (19:19)
Yeah.
It's too close to home.
Yeah, yeah.
It's my husband
as well. I've been with my husband since I was 15 years old, like 29 years this year. we are, you know, same thing. Like you can give hints and a big sign and they still miss it.
Colleen Murphy (19:49)
It's true.
Kristi McVee (19:50)
So Colleen, with regards to where you're going, so you've just turned this education program that you created into a not-for-profit now, is that correct? That's amazing.
Colleen Murphy (20:00)
Yeah. Yeah. thank
you. Well, and thanks to my husband too. That was pretty awesome. He, two years ago when I had been talking to him and said, you know, I really feel passionate about this. This is my calling and I, it's never going to end. Like it's here to stay and I'd like to bring it to the next level. And on Christmas morning,
He had wrapped up a binder and I opened it up and inside was all the paperwork to be a 501c3 nonprofit. So that was pretty awesome. He got it right. He, oh, he absolutely got it right. So that, that was like the best support I could have ever received. So, super good.
Kristi McVee (20:38)
Aw, he did get it right, he listened.
Yeah, it is,
it is. it's, mean, you're obviously giving people your husband works in like first response is not something that it's not for everyone, right? It's giving a lot of yourself and not much back a lot of the times. And I know that we get paid for those jobs and you know, and sometimes, but it's still it takes a lot. And so your husband's doing that. And now you're giving, you know, turning something where you heard all of these stories you saw it.
And I'd imagine, and we'll touch on this in a sec, but I'd imagine, you know, those people that came and sat in your chair as a stylist, you know, when you, it's such a different space from when you speak to children who are being abused at the time. it's terrible and it's horrible what happens to children. And when I was investigating and interviewing children, it broke my heart every time. didn't know how to, you know, sometimes it's uncomprehensible what children go through.
But when you deal with the adult victim survivors who have had no support, they've had no one intervene in the between, they went through it, they're trying and they're basically scrabbling to survive mentally, physically, psychoemotional. It's just when you see that other side, you realize just how bad, just how terrible it is. And imagine you saw that a lot in your chair, like.
Colleen Murphy (21:57)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
absolutely. Absolutely.
Kristi McVee (22:11)
people who, you know, I've had people I've interviewed or spoken to who can't even go into toilets because that's where most of their abuse happened, or, you know, is too scared to turn lights off. And they're adults in their 40s, you know, men who can't have proper relationships with anyone because they're too scared, or they just don't know how to, because they haven't been able to heal.
Colleen Murphy (22:23)
Right.
Yeah, that's exactly right. And you know, I always find myself saying, at least in the US here, I'm like, if you would like to see a decrease in the numbers of addiction and suicide, you should start supporting prevention. Because I'm telling you, that is the root of the problem for a lot of
Kristi McVee (22:49)
Right?
Colleen Murphy (22:54)
people suffering in that demographic and it's so misunderstood. So I firmly believe that if we could do away with sexual abuse, we would see a tremendous decrease in the numbers for alcohol, drug addiction, suicide, cutting. I think we would see a giant dent in those numbers.
Kristi McVee (22:59)
Mm.
not only that, it would reduce the amount of domestic violence, neglect, abuse of children, psycho-emotional abuse of children. The aftermath of child sexual abuse, if not properly dealt with and supported through the healing process, is that drug and alcohol addiction or substance abuse. And then also from there, it affects every point of their life from that moment forward.
potential issues with partners, potential issues with having children. And in my experience, most parents, when they've been abused as children, whether it be sexual or any kind of abuse as a child, any maltreatment, they struggle as parents to parent. So it can be like a literal trigger when you have children, you think you're fine, everything's going, because you've pushed it down into the box.
Colleen Murphy (24:00)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (24:07)
and then you have your children and the box springs open and you can't get the lid back on.
Colleen Murphy (24:12)
Yeah, exactly. Especially if your child reaches the age you were at when something traumatic happens. That can be incredibly triggering. And Kristi, I don't know if you've seen this, but part of this journey, I've worked with first responders, you know, and military, and I did not realize that there are many in that community
who chose this line of work because they themselves were victims as children. And then like a moth to a flame, they were drawn to this because they don't like seeing the cycle repeat. they had a life where for some, the police were the one thing that maybe improved their life in that moment, or the firefighter or the soldier. And so they were drawn to this. And I thought, my gosh, like,
it didn't occur to me that people who work in it have also lived it. And so that was inspiring too.
Kristi McVee (25:13)
Mm.
Yeah, and it can have the opposite effect as well. if, you know, I wouldn't say that, you know, I wouldn't say that when I went through the process of becoming a police officer and the psychological testing that they did, that they really truly delved into that side of things. I don't remember there being questions about, you know, were you abused as a child or anything like that. And it makes me think, and it makes me think if they did,
Colleen Murphy (25:29)
Alright.
Mm-hmm.
Now, ho.
Kristi McVee (25:41)
and they offered the right support, maybe police officers in my position, maybe I wouldn't have burnt out so quickly. I had PTSD and obviously I was very passionate around protecting children, but maybe if I had support from the get-go, from the very first beginning, I don't think that I might not have burnt out in the 10 years. I possibly could have extended my period of.
Colleen Murphy (25:50)
Yeah!
Kristi McVee (26:10)
being in the police. However, we're not sad about me leaving the police because here I am doing prevention. I think I'm doing better work now focusing on prevention. So tell me a bit about, so one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about was obviously when we do have children who have been sexually abused or abused and you know, we're the families, we're the people trying to pick up the pieces and keep our families together, you know.
Colleen Murphy (26:14)
No, not at all.
Kristi McVee (26:36)
What kind of things have you seen or have you, do you recommend for families that are going through this in regards to, you know, parents supporting their kids or helping? Because a lot of the time when I get someone say, something's happened to my child, they've been sexually abused. What do I do now? Yeah.
Colleen Murphy (26:57)
So one of the patterns that I hear, and I'm so glad you brought this up, is I've had parents reach out to me whose child is a survivor of abuse and like a broken record, they all say, I will never forgive myself for not educating my child on this or not knowing. And you know, my thought on that is,
I think there needs to be more parents talking to each other about this topic because none of us knew that this should be talked about. mean, again, like I said, I grew up in the eighties. I had awesome parents. They had no idea that this was a topic that, you you need to warn your child about. So I hate to see parents beat themselves up over this because
We all thought the same thing. And I also feel like on some level, when you send that message to yourself as a parent and you blame yourself for not catching it, that's actually the abuser's voice you're feeding. Because that's part of the grooming and they want you to feel at fault.
Kristi McVee (28:08)
Yes.
Yeah, well then they don't have to take any responsibility.
Colleen Murphy (28:18)
Exactly. So I try to encourage parents when they're being hard on themselves about that. I say, that the voice of the abuser that you're hearing or is that the voice of a loving parent that would never intentionally harm their child? Because they're so quick to judge themselves and
Kristi McVee (28:39)
Yeah.
Colleen Murphy (28:43)
and I don't think they're blue fair to themself, you I'm like, you deserve better than that.
Kristi McVee (28:43)
Yeah, I hear that.
Hmm. Such a good point. And I have so many parents say that and I'm like, and I said it all through my book and thank and I'm so grateful to you for reading my book, Colleen. But I said it, you know, we don't know what we don't know. When we know better, we can do better. And this is the thing, you know, your parents didn't talk to you. I'm only a couple of years younger than you. My parents didn't talk about it other than stranger danger. Watch out for the man in the white van with the lollies or handing out lollies or whatever. I think there might have been a puppy.
I I might've had a conversation with a parent about, you know, if anyone tries to get you to come and look at puppies. I don't know where that story came from. And then, you know, they, when I became a teenager, like just don't go having sex with everyone. That was my, the two conversations I had, I mean, I really, really helpful conversations not. Yet there was also, you know, and I don't know about you, Colleen, but I grew up in a very ex-
big extended family because we had step children, separated parents, et cetera. And there was one or two uncles that I was warned away from, like, don't go near that uncle. And it's like, that's all we used to get told.
Colleen Murphy (29:57)
Right, know. Yeah, and I think we all have a story like that if it wasn't someone in the family, was someone in the neighborhood, you know, like your parents or your grandma would be like, don't go near that house there. There's something, you know, creepy about that. And as a little kid, you're like, what does that mean? Like, creepy to a little kid means like Halloween, scary. We have no idea. So
Kristi McVee (30:10)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Colleen Murphy (30:21)
I'm glad that we're getting better about it. We still have a long ways to go. I do, and I'm sure you hear this too, sometimes I receive pushback from parents with younger children that they're like, well listen, I don't wanna freak my kid out and steal their innocence. And I said, I hear what you're saying, but if you're.
Kristi McVee (30:27)
Yeah.
Colleen Murphy (30:48)
child has a tablet or a phone, I promise you the prevention that I'm offering is not going to be any heavier than what they're seeing on the internet. So, and it's you, I'm using it with the intention of preventing them from getting hurt. I'm not using it to hurt them. So.
Kristi McVee (30:59)
Ha
Correct.
Yeah, and some of the messaging that I've given over the years is that would you prefer, would you prefer to give this information to your kids and help them understand, you know, like with your program, you're teaching them to listen to their body and be empowered to do something right. That is the same for any education program around this space from very little from, you know, when we're talking to our kids about, you know, would you like my help to change your clothes? you've, you've
Colleen Murphy (31:28)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (31:41)
got water all over you, would you like my help or do you want to try it yourself? You know, you're empowering them to make decisions that that involve their body. It's not about, you know, don't let anyone you know, and unfortunately, we do get into that mindset of don't let anyone touch you. You know, if anyone touches you, come and tell mom. But most kids are like, after a few years of that education that we give them that soft education, that, you know, it's okay. They're like, of course not. No one's allowed to touch my vulva.
no one's touching my penis, you know, they're the ones who like stand in their own power and they feel powerful and they can talk and speak up about it. you know, my own little girl when she was really little, I was having these conversations with her from about two and a half, three and, you know, she was very, very empowered, even from a very young age to tell people like, stop it, I don't like it when people tickled her or, you know, her, her pop would try and tickle her and she'd go,
Colleen Murphy (32:09)
Right, right, yeah.
Love it.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (32:38)
stop it, don't like it, I don't want you to. And then when she got a bit older, she changed the language to, I don't give you consent. You know, and she was younger than 10 at the time, because she asked, I don't know how we got onto the consent talk, you know, just those few words can stop someone in their track, an adult in their tracks.
Colleen Murphy (32:45)
yeah i love that that's awesome
Yes. Yeah, and that is one of the pieces I love most inside the program is without mentioning sex at all, I teach the difference between consent and coercion to an age appropriate level. And one of the analogies that I use for the kids is, you know, I more or less explain to them.
Kristi McVee (33:14)
Mm-hmm.
Colleen Murphy (33:22)
Consent is always gonna be a clear positive yes and coercion is the tricky yes but that yes always follows something else and then I have them point out a threat or embarrassment or something forceful so that they can see the difference for themselves because even though they both saying yes, if it
follows something negative, it's coercion. it's positive and it's clear and it's authentic from you, that's consent. And I think that's as far as I need to go when they're young. Later on, they can have a new conversation about that. But it's good to start them young like you did with your daughter and get them used to what consent is because it's so much bigger than just
Kristi McVee (34:01)
Mmm.
Colleen Murphy (34:13)
consent about sex. There's consent in all kinds of things and we need to keep you happy. Yes, yes.
Kristi McVee (34:17)
in everything we do every day, know, you know, consent
in taking a photo of them consent in, you know, sharing that online consent in helping them get changed, you know, consent, all of the things like, I don't think we. And the thing is, we don't even have to use the word consent. It's just as it's just a word that we use later on. It's permission. It's it's, you know, are you okay with this or not okay with this, it's getting your child to feel comfortable in speaking up and
Colleen Murphy (34:23)
Yeah, exactly.
Yes.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (34:46)
One of the things I actually had this conversation with a mother yesterday, a family friend mother, and she was saying that, you she was mentioning about, and you mentioned coercion and we've got new laws coming into Australia about coercive control in domestic violence, because that is obviously an abuse type. And we were just chatting and she was saying how she was talking to a friend about the fact that she's a, you do what I say, parent.
Colleen Murphy (35:11)
Mm-hmm.
Kristi McVee (35:12)
and you
don't speak back and she's got her oldest is now in high school and she's now pushing back and that's quite a normal thing to happen. Kids push back, they test boundaries, they're going to trigger you where you're like, and so she was saying to this mom, she said, know, if you continue to push and make her a yes child who always says yes and never says no, and one day someone is going to take advantage of that.
Her pushing back and you listening to her push back and being okay with her pushing back is helping her find her own voice.
Colleen Murphy (35:45)
100%. Yeah, and even, you know, working as a victim advocate, one of the most important things you can do to empower someone to be strong when it comes to consent is always offering options. Those little things of like, do you want juice, water, or milk? I know it seems silly, but the more a child gets to practice making choices,
the more confident they become and stronger in their character. it's, you know, especially I'm meeting people after they've been through something, but for the child that hasn't been through that, to help build their confidence, offering options as much as possible is gonna make them a lot stronger in the end.
Kristi McVee (36:17)
Mm.
Yeah, and I think to add to that is when they do give you their choice to not tell them that they're wrong for choosing that, you know, like to not knock them down a peg and say, well, no, actually you can't have that. Or you can't talk, you know, I've said this, you can't talk back to me. One of the most empowering things that I can say you can do for your child is and giving them a voice because don't forget, I think a lot of...
Colleen Murphy (36:45)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (37:02)
I don't think we think about this much, but don't forget when we have children, yes, they are children, but we are preparing them for adulthood. Do we want people pleasing pushovers that can't make a decision and don't know how to ask, say no, or, you know, the first time they get into a situation where they have to stand up for themselves, they freeze because they haven't ever been given the opportunity to speak up or to voice their opinion. You know, the thing is, is that
Colleen Murphy (37:26)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (37:28)
And it could happen if that's just how it happens. But what we want to do is encourage them to become amazing individuals who can stand on their own two feet, make decisions and become that, you know, that person that feels confident in themselves. That's what we're trying to do here.
Colleen Murphy (37:45)
Exactly. And to add to that, it's important to teach children that you are allowed to question authority in a respectful way. And I say that because we all know children who have an abuser that was in an authoritative role. So I don't want them to just assume because this person has a title that they don't have a say or they're not allowed to critically think.
Kristi McVee (37:55)
Yes.
Colleen Murphy (38:12)
If something is off and you don't feel right about it, you're allowed to ask questions and you absolutely shouldn't.
Kristi McVee (38:19)
Yeah, it's interesting. My daughter, she had her own issues at school a few years back when she was about 14, 15. She's in her last year of school now. she was so she has ADHD, medicated and, and diagnosed. And she had to advocate for herself in class with a teacher who was basically telling her she was wrong. She wasn't allowed to have
Colleen Murphy (38:32)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (38:41)
know, adequate exceptions for her learning disability and all of this stuff. And, and, know, because I had given her a voice from a very young age because she was allowed to speak up in our home. And some people might say that is rude, but this teacher would not listen to her, was not giving her adequate exceptions, was not basically ignoring everything that was set out for her in her learning, independent learning program.
And she had to stand up for herself and this man was six foot something and she's in class. Yeah, so, and my daughter's not much taller than me and I'm not tall. And she's like stood up to him and said, no, this is my education program. This is what has been deemed by my pediatrician.
Colleen Murphy (39:15)
I'm not talking.
Wow, good for her.
Kristi McVee (39:25)
And I know, but do you know what?
It's awesome. from that moment forward, I knew my daughter was gonna be okay. But she shouldn't have to as well, know? We shouldn't have to, a 14 year old girl shouldn't have to stand up against a 50 year old man and try and get what's right for her in her education setting. But my point of this is that if we allow children or if we give them the space to speak up for themselves in our homes,
Colleen Murphy (39:32)
That's exactly right.
Kristi McVee (39:50)
and to listen and to be reasonable. It doesn't mean we always say yes. It just means that we listen and we hear them and we discuss the options with them. And at the end of the day, we're the parent, we're going to choose what we think is right, right? But we've given them that space to be able to know that that's exactly what we expect. Like this is okay. It's okay to speak up. Hopefully when they get in a situation like they're with a...
Colleen Murphy (39:50)
Hmm?
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (40:13)
maybe a sexual partner with that they don't like what's happening. Maybe it's with someone who's trying to abuse them and say and do something. Maybe it's with a group of friends who are doing something risky and they know that it's not okay and they're not okay with it, but they feel strong. You know, they're empowered to speak up and walk away.
Colleen Murphy (40:30)
Absolutely. Yeah, and I always say too when you're offering your child options that doesn't mean that options are endless You can still give your boundaries of like personal, you know your parental guidance So that's important too. I think sometimes parents roll their eyes and think I'm not gonna let my kid just go to spring break with a stranger I'm like, I'm not suggesting that I'm saying a few options within your comfort zone
Kristi McVee (40:52)
No.
Yeah.
Colleen Murphy (40:56)
where
the child still gets an option to choose. And just, know, yeah.
Kristi McVee (41:01)
Yeah, and
well, and I wanted to just also bring up a theme that we teach in Australian body safety is that, you know, when we talk about always feeling the right to feel safe at all times, right? And that's one of the themes that we have in body safety. We have the right to feel safe at all times. That also includes the parent. So for instance, so for instance, you know, as a parent, and I've told this story before, but
Colleen Murphy (41:22)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (41:28)
my daughter's asked to sleep over somewhere or she's asked to go camping with someone. And I didn't know that parent very well and I wasn't very comfortable with that. And so I said no, but I explained the reasons why. And I used it in the same way you said, if I had have had the language I would have used my body tells the truth. So I said to her, body, if I don't listen to my early warning signs, I don't feel very comfortable with this. My early warning signs are telling me no.
Colleen Murphy (41:46)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (41:54)
This is really unsafe and I'm not comfortable. I said, I know that you feel you really want to go, but if I don't listen to them, then what am I telling myself that I shouldn't listen to my body and that I shouldn't do what's right for my body? And so, you know, I had that conversation with my daughter and eventually she didn't go. And later on, she came back to me and said, actually, mom, I didn't really want to go, but I was feeling pressured to go. I thought, you know, so the so, you know, this is a thing like.
Colleen Murphy (42:17)
Wow. Yeah? That's huge.
Kristi McVee (42:21)
We're teaching our children to listen to their body, listen to those warning signs, but if we then don't listen to ours, and we can use that language with them back and forth reciprocally, same with your program.
Colleen Murphy (42:27)
Yeah.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah, I hope my neutral face was on when you mentioned the word sleepover. Because I panicked inside. I'm like, I'm fine. Everything's fine. But you know as well as I do, when a child mentions a sleepover, we're all gulp.
Kristi McVee (42:39)
Yeah.
Google Ads.
I know I got a lot
of flack on online recently, a lot of positive feedback, but a lot of negative feedback as well. Like there's a big divide down the middle over sleepovers. You know, there's a lot of people are like, I was safe at sleepovers and nothing ever happened to me. And then this massive group of people like I was abused at my sleepover. The kids abused me. And, you know, so I've copped a lot of flack in the last few weeks over.
Colleen Murphy (43:04)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah,
I we are definitely on the same side with that. know, again, you never want to tell another parent how to parent, but.
Kristi McVee (43:22)
Yes.
Yeah,
yeah. I mean, look, my daughter has had in the years gone by, she has had sleepovers, but generally they were at my house and...
Colleen Murphy (43:40)
Yeah,
we have sleepovers too at my house on my
Kristi McVee (43:46)
Where I can monitor what they're watching, what they're doing, who's in which room, where everyone is.
Colleen Murphy (43:48)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
All with options.
Kristi McVee (43:53)
It's always like, okay, time to put the phones away, the devices away, you know, and everyone know, look, you can contact your parents, but all the devices go here and that's where they stay for the rest of the night, you know. It's only because we've seen it and we've heard it and we know what's gonna happen or can happen. And again, you know, we just wanna give out all of the kids, you know, and I take it very seriously, like when a child's in my care,
Colleen Murphy (43:56)
Yes!
Yeah. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (44:21)
I treat them like they're my child. So all the same rules apply when they're at my house. I don't, and I'm not, and it takes practice. For some parents, it's gonna take practice to be firm on that and to be that type of parent that goes, I'm sorry. I know that really upsets you that you're not allowed to do device overnight, but this is what the rules are in our house or this is how we do it in our home.
Colleen Murphy (44:23)
Thank you.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. I'm the same way.
Kristi McVee (44:47)
It's taken practice though, right? And we just know, but you know, we're good with it. I think that's the thing, like my daughter, even now at 17, she's like, when she goes out with friends or she goes somewhere and she just got her license, I'm like, where are you going? How far, how long are you gonna be? And she's like, mom, why won't you just leave? I'm like, it's my job to care about you and worry about you. I'm not saying no, just give me the dates so I can relax a little.
Colleen Murphy (45:05)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and I always encourage parents to, I know as a mom, my kids are sick of listening to me. Like they roll their eyes, they're like, mom, we already know this. I'm like, okay, I recognize that I need to back off. However, it does help to connect with other parents that share the same values and have that mom deliver your message because
Kristi McVee (45:19)
Ha ha ha
Yeah.
Colleen Murphy (45:38)
Sometimes, especially teenagers, they're sick of us, and that's fair. So I make it a point to hang tight with other moms that, you know, think like we do so that my kids aren't, you know, just completely ignoring me. If it comes from Mrs. Smith instead of from mom, they listen to her and take it more seriously.
Kristi McVee (45:49)
Connecting.
Yeah, 100%.
Colleen Murphy (46:03)
And I've
had other parents come to me and ask me to do the same, like, can you please talk to this kid about YouTube and why we only want kids' YouTube and not the regular YouTube? And I'm like, yeah, I'll handle that, no problem. So it does help to parent in groups when you find the right people.
Kristi McVee (46:17)
Yeah.
Yeah, 100%. And you know, not every parent's going to have the same beliefs and unfortunately, it's just what it is. But I'm with you. Like I used to have conversations about this stuff with other parents all the time and judging from their reaction and how they then dealt with what I knew was whether I was like, okay, we can like team up together. And they always used me as like, can you please bring this up in front of the kids or
Colleen Murphy (46:27)
yeah.
Yes.
Kristi McVee (46:50)
When they're at
your house next, can you talk about something like this? And I used to find a way to bring the conversation to this point. Like, you know, so I hear that, you know, this has happened at school. What do you know about that? Like, you know, be the whole gossipy mom, actually I'm giving like a message in there. It's fun, but it's not, it's like, okay, I'll do it. Sorry.
Colleen Murphy (47:02)
Yeah. 100%. Yep. Yeah.
Well, that's
awesome that they have you to do that for them because it's, you know, it's helping the kids tremendously.
Kristi McVee (47:21)
Well, I don't know about you, Colleen, and where your kids are at, but my daughter's now much older, and so her friends all come to her for advice because she comes to, and then she goes, they're like, can you ask your mum? And I'm like.
Colleen Murphy (47:32)
That's a compliment though if her peers are saying that. That's a really good sign.
Kristi McVee (47:34)
You reckon?
Yeah, they've asked me so many things and I'm like, like some of them I'm like, and then some of some of the things I'm like, okay, this is what they need to do. Like, I just wish I just wish sometimes I could like, you and I could pull our stuff out and implement implant, implant it in all of the parents or all of the kids. Because then you know, that have such easier time. It's not that it's, it's not hard, but it is hard because if you have never had this stuff.
Colleen Murphy (47:54)
I know.
Kristi McVee (48:05)
if you've never talked about it or if you never had experience with it or in some cases and I imagine you know if you've got a trauma background or if there's trauma in your background you can actually go the other side of the spectrum and be completely frozen in fear so it can really impede and hinge you know impede how your parents so we're lucky we're so lucky that we've got you over there and
Colleen Murphy (48:08)
Okay.
Yeah.
you
Kristi McVee (48:30)
and me over here and we're all saying the same things, the exact same messages. I mean, you read my book and you know exactly those messages that I gave were from all of that experience. And for me, I don't know about you, Colleen, this is kind of close to the last question. Has it impacted your parenting?
Colleen Murphy (48:49)
That's an understatement. I
definitely went through a phase where I was maybe being a little too hypervigilant and I'm a lot better now, but there was a period of time where I
couldn't trust anybody. And I knew I wasn't doing well. Like that's not healthy either. But that's also where I found my faith, you know? And I have to remember that eventually the goal is to teach your children how to survive without you. And I wasn't doing a very good job of that by trying to constantly, you know, keep them in a bubble. That solves nothing.
It actually makes it worse for them. So once I worked through that and realized, okay, I think I'll be able to relax if I know they're educated and then I don't have to hover and be there 24-7 because the truth is I'm not going to be able to protect them from everything. So it's finding that balance and
Kristi McVee (49:39)
Yeah.
Colleen Murphy (50:02)
And also taking a step back sometimes and realizing, okay, the whole world is not the extremes you and I are used to seeing. I forget that sometimes, but I need to remind myself that my norm is not their norm. Yeah, and somewhere in the middle is probably a healthier balance.
Kristi McVee (50:12)
No.
Everyone's known, yeah.
Yeah, I would imagine your laugh was indicative of how my experience was as well when I first found out and was in thrust into this space as a detective police officer, etc. I was exactly the same hypervigilant like, my gosh, I'm never letting my daughter out of this bubble. But as time went on, can I found I feel that.
Colleen Murphy (50:41)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (50:46)
As time goes on and you empower your children and you're seeing them use the tools that they're being taught and you see them stand up for themselves in the schoolyard or in the home and you realize, hey, they're actually getting this. They actually understand what we're trying to teach them. you know, okay, they can go on that. Like my daughter has, you know, gone on camps, but I was, I was kind of in the periphery, you know, or she has done sports and stuff and I was on the committee. So I used to have to be there, but she wasn't in my space.
the whole time I was just there as mum's over there, I need her kind of thing as she grew up. so I think it's, you're really, and I'll ask your opinion on this as well, Colleen, if you're really scared and you're worried and you're hypervigilance and you feel like you can't let them out of your sight, do as much as you can to empower them and yourself and watch them thrive under that empowerment, watch them teach you that they understand it.
Colleen Murphy (51:18)
Yes.
apps.
Kristi McVee (51:41)
put yourself into positions where you can just be on the outside of their bubble, know, let them go and explore and play and find ways. If they wanna go on a play date, hey, let's do it in the park versus going to someone's home. Let's go do it in an open public space where everyone can be safe at the same time or the play center or wherever. And then you can see them stepping up and being those young people who...
Colleen Murphy (52:06)
Thank
Kristi McVee (52:07)
empowered. I think that would be my advice for parents. What about you?
Colleen Murphy (52:11)
And I would really add to that by definitely compliment your children when they do bring something to you, even if it's not something big. And I always think of the time my son, he's 14 now, but when he was four years old, this was an innocent situation, but he was at a donut shop with my sister-in-law and my nephew. I wasn't there.
But this elderly man approached my son in front of my sister-in-law and he reached out and he grabbed my son's face in his hands and he said, you're, you know, such a beautiful boy, like bless you, right? And right, okay. But he also had an accent and maybe there was a cultural, I don't know, I wasn't there. But when my son came home, he told me within an hour,
Kristi McVee (52:49)
Yeah.
Colleen Murphy (53:04)
mom, something weird happened and I was like, tell me like what's going on. And so he shared that story and I really laid it on thick and said, like, put my hands on his shoulders and I said, I am so proud of you for telling me that. Like that is everything because for you to be comfortable enough to say that tells me you're going to do awesome in the world.
and you have really good instincts and that means you're good at reading people like this is brilliant, keep going. And so because I was planting those little seeds, he knew those were moments that make me proud. So then as he's aging, he still brings me things like that because he knows it's like a wow moment for me. So.
Kristi McVee (53:44)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Colleen Murphy (53:53)
Yeah, really complimenting your child when they do share something with you, even if it's totally innocent, nothing to worry about. Really play it up and tell them how awesome it is that they're sharing that.
Kristi McVee (54:02)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think I mean, I love that. And I think like my face was like, Oh my gosh, someone touched your child with that. I was like, Ah, but do know, I've had that happen in other countries as well with my daughter and stuff. And I'm like, um, yeah.
Colleen Murphy (54:12)
I know.
And
if there's a language barrier, I think that, you know, again, I think maybe his intentions were innocent and my sister-in-law was sitting right there. And yeah, it was just one of those moments that.
Kristi McVee (54:29)
Hopefully.
But yeah, it's a good moment and the fact that he told you and explained what happened and nothing further happened, that's perfect. That's the perfect thing. And from that age, that's little age, he was able to articulate, that was weird and hey, that didn't, and I know that that shouldn't, that's not what happened. So that's simple, that's simple and beautiful because it's so funny that you bring up that praise.
I didn't get a lot of praise as a child. didn't get a lot of moments where my parents told me they were proud of me. So I constantly tell my daughter how much I'm proud of her and all, yeah, it's just a, yeah, it's just a byproduct of the fact that I wasn't told that, right? Anyways, and she did some chores on the weekend. She was helping out around the house and she was like, mom, you haven't told me you're proud of me yet. She was looking for validation.
Colleen Murphy (55:26)
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
Kristi McVee (55:27)
I was like,
sorry, I was busy. My mind was elsewhere.
Colleen Murphy (55:32)
Yeah,
and validation is huge. And that even with my son in that circumstance, I did validate him. I didn't elaborate or say, well, it might have been nothing. I said, you know what? You're right. And I'm glad that you felt that. And that is a little weird. Like, I completely validated the situation and just left it at that so that he felt empowered, like I said and did the right thing. So.
Kristi McVee (55:34)
you
Yeah.
And it
would have set him up for success for the rest of his life. Every time he does that, if you're giving him that praise and that validation, he will continue to come to you, whether it's he's seen something inappropriate online or someone's done something inappropriate in the schoolyard or it opens up that line of communication. And we sometimes question and wonder why our kids don't talk to us.
Well, you know, if we're always constantly saying, oh, well, that's not right. And that's the we shouldn't do that. And that kid's an idiot or whatever, you know, whatever you say. You know, if we're constantly putting things down, their world down, of course, they're not going to come to us and talk to us. It's it's like, you know, it makes them feel bad all the time. So, yeah.
Colleen Murphy (56:43)
Yeah,
exactly.
Kristi McVee (56:46)
Yeah, well, this has been an amazing conversation. I'm so proud of you and everything you're doing over there. And I'm proud of your program. Like the whole the whole thing sounds amazing. And I would have loved to I would love to see, you know, how awesome and kids love that interaction like they love, you know, and I think that inquiry like encouraging kids to be curious is the best thing that you can give them.
Colleen Murphy (56:49)
Get out, thank you.
Kristi McVee (57:12)
the best tool that you can teach them is to be curious, to use their critical thinking, to think things through because when something happens, they will not freeze, they will go, okay, this doesn't feel right, this is the steps I take and this is what I do next. And I think that's a really important tool.
Colleen Murphy (57:28)
Yeah, and you, I know you know as an officer too, we always revert back to our highest level of training. And so we're starting from a place where none of us had any training at all. So I'm trying to give them the toolbox that we didn't grow up with so that they can fall back on that training should they ever need it.
Kristi McVee (57:42)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and that is the best thing that we can give our kids because one day we're not gonna be around or we're not gonna be with them and they need that training in their toolbox to be able to go, okay, this is what I do and this is what I do next. Yeah, Colleen, you're an amazing, amazing human. And if people want to find out more about what you're doing over there, where can they go?
Colleen Murphy (58:04)
Absolutely.
So we have a website. It's mbttt.org or as the kids say mbttt because it's easier. So mbttt.org. And we did just recently start a new initiative and this is really fun. I'll send it over to you Kristi but it's I'm trying to get a collage of faces from around the world.
Kristi McVee (58:24)
Yeah.
Colleen Murphy (58:40)
holding a prevention sign and start a Me3 movement, if you will, where there's tons of adults on board with carrying a sign, either similar to mine or something that is a prevention message to a child. The one I just had recently wound up in the local paper, and I'm holding a sign that says,
Kristi McVee (58:46)
Yeah.
Colleen Murphy (59:04)
Safe adults will never ask you to keep a secret about private parts. And the goal in that is to deliver a message in a way that highlights the safe adults without even talking about the predator, just as gentle reminders to children like, hey, these are behaviors you can count on, so that they know if they see anything different, that's when they should start talking.
Kristi McVee (59:09)
Yeah.
I'd love to be involved in that. So I will work on something and send your photo. But yeah, that's amazing. Thank you again, Colleen. So thank you so much. And I will share your website links in the show notes so people can find you and keep up to date with what you're doing over there. But it's amazing to connect like this. And thank you for giving your night. I know it's Sunday night over there and it's Monday morning here, but thank you so much.
Colleen Murphy (59:33)
Yes, please.
Thank you.
Yes, and thank you for your book and all that you're doing. It's awesome. Thank you.
Kristi McVee (59:59)
You're amazing.
Have a good rest of your day.
Colleen Murphy (1:00:02)
Stay in touch. Bye.
Kristi McVee (1:00:05)
Thank you for listening to this episode. Education empowers children, strengthens parents and most importantly, prevents abuse. That's why I do this work and that's why you're here. So truly thank you. If you'd like more support or resources, follow me on social media under Kristi McVee or cape-au where you'll find all the links in the show notes. You can also grab a copy of my book, Operation KidSafe, a detective's guide to child abuse prevention at www.cape-au.com
where you'll find further resources and self-paced courses to help you in this journey of protecting your kids. If you found this episode valuable, please take a moment to leave a review or share it with someone important. Your support helps more parents and caregivers discover this important information and take action to keep kids safe. Check the show notes for extra links and support. And most importantly, thank you for showing up and taking action to protect your kids. See you next time.
