Nikki (00:02)
They might be sitting there with teenagers now and thinking, damn, I've really stuffed up. You know, there is hope and there is ways of working with young people.
Kristi McVee (00:06)
I
Nikki (00:11)
It's never too late to start. You know, we start now. We start now that we know. And I think that forgiving ourselves for all that our parenting, when our kids were young, if we miss things, we might've missed some of their language. I often talk about language of harm, a child's language of harm, which is often nonverbal. It's often through behavior. We might've missed some of that.
Kristi McVee - Intro (00:36)
Welcome to Conversations with Kristi I'm Kristi McVee a former WA police officer, specialist child interviewer and child abuse detective. For years I worked on the front lines investigating child sexual abuse, where I saw the risks, the patterns and most importantly, the ways that we can protect our kids. Now I'm here to share that knowledge with you. This podcast is all about real conversations, giving parents, carers and educators the tools to keep their kids safe, both in person and online.
Through survivor stories, expert insights and practical advice, we'll navigate these tough topics together so you feel informed, confident and empowered. Because when we know better, we can do better and our kids deserve nothing less. CONTENT WARNING Some topics and conversations can be triggering for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised as your mental health is important. Please refer to my website and the show notes for available support services.
Kristi McVee (01:33)
Welcome back to Conversations with Kristi podcast. I am so excited to be talking to the wonderful Nikki Butler today.
For anyone who listens to this podcast, you know that I find a lot of my guests through my LinkedIn connections, which is amazing because LinkedIn has actually provided me so many wonderful guests for my podcast, but also linked me up with so many like-minded individuals who are in the child safety and child protection space. And Nikki is one of those people, and I don't want to over explain what Nikki does. I'm gonna let Nikki do that in a minute.
But thank you so much for being here, Nikki. And thanks for so much for putting your hand up to come on the podcast and talk about, well, I won't even tell everyone what you're gonna talk about because that's gonna ruin the surprise. So Nikki, thank you for being here. And if you don't mind starting off with who you are, what you do, and how you got to where you are, talking about what we're talking about today.
Nikki (02:27)
Yeah. Well, firstly, thank you so much for inviting me to be a guest on your podcast. It's really exciting to be here and yeah, seeing where the conversational journey takes us this morning. So a little bit about me, I do wear, have quite a few hats actually. But I came into the space of working with children and teenagers and families when I was around about
And we're not going to talk about ages here, but I have spent quite a lot over 30 years now being dedicated to child protection, child safety and well-being. And so there's a lot of things that I've done in my background. I've set up programs for street kids. I've worked with after-school programs, holiday programs, and I moved into working with young mothers and pregnant teenagers.
for a number of years and then moved into the health context. Did social work degrees and, you know, research along the way and all of that stuff. I often reflect and I think over 30 years ago, I became passionate about child protection and the passion just gets bigger and bigger stronger. just doesn't leave me. So I have decided and worked out that it is a calling. It's kind of part of...
Yeah, what I'm here for.
Kristi McVee (03:49)
I feel that. I feel that deeply because it's similar to mine. I say to people, I can't sleep at night. I think about this all the time. I wake up thinking about it. you know, instead of being angry at whatever the universe or whatever for like, you know, hounding me with this passion, I'm just going with it and just letting it take me wherever it takes me. So you sound exactly like I am.
Nikki (04:12)
Sometimes I think do I just go and work in a garden center? But you know, I think I'd be bored very very quickly.
Kristi McVee (04:16)
Yeah.
Yeah, I actually say that probably once a week. Wouldn't it be easier if I just had a normal job? But no, no, it wouldn't because I'd still be hounded by the thoughts of everything that I know. so Nikki, so Nikki, so you've worked and done this work for such a long time. And I'd imagine, you know, for me personally, like when I look back and reflect on my own journey in this space, and I haven't been doing it as long as you but
Nikki (04:24)
I'm sorry.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (04:46)
I realized that what I knew at the beginning and what I know now are so different. Like I actually had a moment of reflection this morning actually, where I thought and look, hand on heart and sharing some of the things that, like I just wish I had known what I know now back when I was first a police officer, because at times when I reflect on that journey very early on, I think, my gosh, I was so ignorant and so, so,
I had no idea and no understanding of what people are going through. And I came from a lens of, well, I can get, you know, just get yourself together or just pull yourself together and just, you know, why aren't you doing it? It's simple, you know, like that ignorant stance. And, and part of it wasn't because of I believed that it was because that's what is taught, you know, like just, you know, I'm there to go and, you know, help protect people. But it was not really
When I first went in, it was sort of like, this is what we do, policy procedure, policy procedure. There was no humanality to it. There was no, you know, compassion to it. And so when you first joined the police, you're just following policy and procedure without that human element. And then, you know, a few years in, especially when I started interviewing children, I realized just how it's not as simple as we make it out. Like they try and make you be they want you to be a robot in there and
Nikki (06:09)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (06:10)
you're actually dealing with people with trauma, with, you know, and all of these other complexities. And as I went through that, and now I look back and I go far out, man, like, I wish they, I wish I knew more when I started, I could have done a better job back then. But I guess that's part of the learnings. I'm sure in the 30 years that you've been doing this, you probably started out with this idea of what things are. And then here you are 30 years later going, wow, like,
I knew nothing if a bit of a game of Thrones reference. We know nothing. John Snow, like we literally know nothing. And at the start and then, you know, and we still don't know as much as we think we do now. That's a bit of rambling there. So, Nikki, what I wanted to talk to you about today is, you you worked with young mothers and with pregnant moms and stuff like that.
Nikki (06:48)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (07:00)
And I'd imagine in that young mother space, especially, you would have seen young teenage people that were obviously dealing with their own traumas and their own issues that they probably didn't have anyone to really talk about. Like, let's dive into some of the stuff that you know about teens and all of this space of needing people to be there for them.
Nikki (07:09)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. You've just taken me instantly back to the years that I worked directly with teen mothers. And I did a whole research thesis on it. And I was pregnant at the same time with my second child who was, I got pregnant when my daughter was 17. And so I was working with young mothers. I was doing a research thesis and
I had become pregnant. So it was, yeah, all quite interesting. And you've taken me back to some of the stories. There were some incredibly sad stories. I will never, ever forget the young mother. She was about 13 or 14 years of age and child protection services would not let her keep her baby. There was no question. She had no...
She had no choice because the father of her baby was her father. Now this young girl had a whole history of harm and trauma and now this was a baby that she loved. She absolutely loved and I just remember it was heartbreaking. That's one of the stories that comes to mind. There were also some beautiful stories with really good outcomes.
That was one of the sad ones and one of the many stories why I am so passionate about teenagers being protected and safe from harm and kind of having their own sense of agency and their own being able to
to know ways they can keep themselves safe and communicate when things aren't okay for them as well. Yeah, that's, yeah, one of the stories. Yeah, my heart was broken a long time ago.
Kristi McVee (09:05)
Hmm. You've just broken my heart.
I've seen actually that same scenario. So I have seen that same scenario in my work. what probably breaks my heart the most is that that young person would have been just so wanting to protect that little baby from what she had been through. I can just envision what was going on for her and how hopeless and how heartbroken she would have been.
Nikki (09:29)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (09:36)
that in itself is a massive trauma to her future. And her future self is probably still dealing with that now. So yeah, it's just so heartbreaking. Now, to get started in talking about this, before we press record, I mentioned how sometimes when we are parents, we think once our kids hit those teenage years, kind of our job's done, like fire out. We survived those younger years.
Nikki (09:40)
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Kristi McVee (10:03)
and now they're teenagers, yay. And then of course our kids start pushing back, they start doing, like they might start some risk taking behavior. And what I have seen, and even my daughter makes the comment, she's 17 herself right now, she makes the comment all the time. She's like, mom, parents are silly. They just stop parenting. And I'm like, I know babe, but I think some parents think that they don't have to parent teens or...
Nikki (10:03)
Yes.
you
Kristi McVee (10:30)
they don't know how to parent teens and it gets harder. So they stop or they just, you know, give up. And so let's talk about that. I think one of the things that we need to, I personally believe is you actually need to be more involved with your teens. They need you more than they did when they were two.
Nikki (10:47)
Yeah, absolutely. And it can be really difficult navigating this place because sometimes they don't really want you around much. You know, you're not their favorite person in the world anymore. You know, their friends are. And they come back around to, you know, but they can often go through a stage where they don't really want to hang out as much as they used to. So it can be quite hard for a parent to know how to navigate that.
and how to keep the lines of communication open, how to ensure that their team knows that they are there for them. And so there comes that kind of balancing, like, am I too involved? Am I over-involved? Because on one hand, it can feel like to the young person, I'm not parented anymore. And on the other hand, you're going to have parents that become
more strict and they try to really tighten the reins and they apply tough love. And so you've kind of got two ends of the scale there and finding that balance so that really parenting teenagers, it's a balance between keeping them safe, keeping communication open, allowing them some
freedoms and the opportunities to grow and for self-expression and for working out problems themselves and all of that because we can be so used to as parents fixing things, solving things. It's really hard for parents to navigate that.
Kristi McVee (12:21)
Yeah, I will admit Hannah again, I will. Here's an admission of truth. I really struggled with that because I went from having this little person who was like, I was a hero. She looked to me for every answer, everything I said, she just believed. And then all of a sudden, as she shifted from that, that that little person into that teenage person, she was now no longer believing what I said or didn't like what I said, or she was pushing back on what I said and arguing things. And it was like,
Nikki (12:35)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (12:50)
slap to the face because I had this docile little human who was like, you're the best thing ever mum. And now you I hate you, you're ruining my life and you know, and all of that that struggle. And it was a real tough time for me because I went from feeling like I had this parenting thing down pat to, you know, to really second guessing my parenting and who I was and
Nikki (12:59)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (13:13)
And it pushed lots of buttons. It not only pushed buttons in me about my worth and who I was as a parent, but it pushed buttons in me as, know, what kind of parent am I if my child won't listen? What kind of parent am I if she's pushing back and she's, you know, all of these things and all of these unwritten rules that we have around children, like they should be seen, they should be do what they're told. They need to listen, they need to be quiet. And then I've...
Nikki (13:26)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (13:41)
And because I'd had that, she'd had years of being, first of all, she was always given a voice. She was taught protective behaviors and body safety. She was taught about her own bodily autonomy and she was taught about her own being, she's an individual, she's not a belonging or I don't own her or no one owns her. She's this own little person.
And so when she got to teenage years, all of that was flipped on its backs, like flipped over on me and said, you know, I have a voice, I'm allowed to say what I want. You don't get to tell me what, you know, so for instance, so all of a sudden I'm like, shit, like I've basically created a monster here, but it's not that at all. Like it took me a little while to go, actually, this is what I wanted. This is really important because if she's,
Nikki (14:07)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (14:30)
speaking up to me an adult in the big wide world, she's going to speak up for herself and have that, you know, she's going to have that strength and courage to stand up for herself and to speak up when she she's not going to be a pushover. She's not going to be taken advantage of. And, you know, and so I actually did my job right in all of that in. Yeah. So let's talk about, you know, I guess from the perspective of young people.
Nikki (14:35)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Kristi McVee (15:00)
Let's talk about, you know, the fact is, is that our kids do need us more, like they need us all the way through that, but the parenting journey changes and we need to change with it. You know, how we support our kids, how can we support them through those phases? What advice do you have for parents in that?
Nikki (15:15)
Yeah.
Yeah, and it's, you reminded me about, I'm taking a little step back and I'll come back to your question, but I remember the last time I told my daughter to go to her room was when she was 13, because it was nighttime and she jumped out the window. She just thought, right, that's it, I'm not staying here. So I never ever, you know, use that as a consequence again. I spent the rest of the night driving around the streets trying to find her.
which I did find her in the end and she was with her friend and she'd, you know, meet up with her friend and all of that. But yeah, having to kind of change the way that we do things and yeah, so bring me back to your question. Sorry.
Kristi McVee (16:01)
My question is, like what kind of, I guess, what do we need to know about the brain development in teens that all of a sudden they become this like little person that looks up to us with hearts in their eyes and then all of a sudden they're hating us. What's happening in that developmental stages that changes that and also I guess to remind parents that it's quite normal for our kids to push back.
Nikki (16:22)
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely. And if you take it back to, I know it's an old theory now, but it is still taught in universities, I'm told, that you go back to Erickson's model of, or theory of development, and you think, and you look at the adolescent years, and it's about identity confusion.
And so it's a period of time where they're needing to work things out for themselves. Who actually am I? For all these years, mum's told me who I am or dad's told me who I am or I wear these clothes because mum loves them, you know, and it's, it's who am I? What do I want? What is my true gender? Who are the friends I want? Okay, mum doesn't like my friends, but I like them.
you know, and so working out what do I want to be? What do I want to do? And, and so this, you know, part of that developmental stage is pushing back. And I love the way that you reframed that, that's, you know, they're meant to push back. They're meant to start standing up for themselves. They're meant to start knowing what they want and who they are and what they want to do.
Kristi McVee (17:18)
Mm.
Yes.
Nikki (17:32)
And so when we try to squash that, we're suppressing, you know, part of their own development. And at the same time, we also still need to have boundaries. We still need to, you know, we still need to be protective parents without being overprotective and without being underprotective. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (17:40)
Mmm.
Yeah, I was about to say
that. I was about to add that there's a fine line that you need to walk between, know, obviously, no, you will not do that. You will do what I told you. well, screw it. You just do whatever you want, because our kids still need boundaries. They still need us to be protective. They still need us to talk to them about stuff that we just can't pull out, put our hands up in the air, because one of the biggest complaints from my daughter's friends that she shares with me is that mom doesn't care.
she doesn't do anything, like she doesn't care where I am, what I'm doing. And, you know, at first that might seem like it's a really good thing for some teens, but eventually they're gonna go, well, actually does my mom care or my dad care? Do they really care where I am or what I'm doing? Because it kind of has this vacuum when they feel like they've, it might be what they want at first, but then it becomes a vacuum where they're like, or an echo chamber where they're like, but no one cares about me.
Nikki (18:35)
Yeah.
you
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (18:51)
Because really
we're meant to still care about our kids even in high school.
Nikki (18:54)
Yeah,
that's right. And I can really resonate with that. I think about my own teenage years and in a lot of space of working in child protection, think for years and years working with, I set up a child protection program across an extensive number of hospital and community services, worked with child safety and police and...
you know, lead the development of a memorandum of understanding between the key players, all of that stuff. We didn't bring in our own experiences. For years, we had to put on our professional hat and wear that. And I've been thinking more and more around the real value in our own experiences and remembering back to when we were teenagers.
Because when we do that, it helps us come from a developmental perspective, I mean, an empathetic perspective. And when we're thinking about the stage of development, we're thinking about trauma-informed principles, and we're bringing an empathetic lens to that. can work so much more effectively with young people, and we can provide so much more effective advice and guidance for parents as well.
Kristi McVee (19:45)
yeah.
Nikki (20:12)
for all the teen mums and dads out there and all the teen stepmums and dads and you know and um so I think back about with my own teenage years I lived with dad when I was 13 to 15 and he was very strict you come home at a certain time one minute late I'd be one minute at one week grounded I was never ever ever one minute late ever
Kristi McVee (20:21)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nikki (20:41)
But what I did in that time that I was out, he never asked about. things happened to me. Well, that's right. And things happened to me. I had my own experiences in my teen years of sexual violence at different ages, different people, totally different contexts. And, you know, he would never, ever have known.
Kristi McVee (20:48)
It could have been stealing cars or doing anything.
Nikki (21:08)
He did not know. And all that mattered to him or how it felt like, I think that more mattered to him, but what it felt like is all that mattered was I was not one minute late. I obeyed the rules. Yet in that time of being out, all sorts of things were going on.
Kristi McVee (21:27)
think it's a sense of control. If you're doing what I tell you to do, when I tell you to do it and you don't disobey me, I've got a controlled child or a, you know, like a good child, that good versus bad. And it's a sense of control. My parents were very much the same. You do what I, you know, and they had no idea I was going to this person's house and going to this party or similar, same, same, almost the same. And I lived with my dad as well, but I had a stepmom.
Nikki (21:39)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (21:54)
And, you know, because I wasn't able to talk to them about it or they never asked questions, they just, and I lived in a small community. So if I, if I got, I had to be sneaky, otherwise people would report back to my parents about what I was doing or where they saw me or who I was with, you know, and even, even friendships. And this is a thing like, I just think, and I wrote down here as a parent, how do we support our kids in doing testing those boundaries and, and doing that stuff? Because
Nikki (22:08)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (22:21)
there is things that they're going to try. They need to try it because they need to work out who they are because if they're constantly wrapped up in a bubble, and I saw this all the time, right? Nearly 18 year olds going out and getting drunk and killing themselves in a car or being punched at the pub or going and...
Nikki (22:33)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (22:42)
going and sexually harming a woman because they didn't know what no was, because they hadn't had any experiences in being told no in their childhood or all of the other things that happened, or just being, and excuse my French, but just being an absolute little fuckwit, because they just, all of a sudden they get to that age and they think that they're invincible. And it's because we as parents didn't allow them to stuff up along the way so that they got to that age.
Nikki (22:50)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Bye.
Kristi McVee (23:09)
And I mean, I don't mean that with disrespect. mean it like, honestly, these poor kids are like being set free at 18. Like all of a sudden they have the brain development to be able to make these choices.
Nikki (23:20)
Yeah
Kristi McVee (23:21)
It's crazy. I mean, I don't know about you, but I was kicked out of home at 15. I bought my first home at 18. I was working like, you know, amounts of hours. I bought a house because I wanted stability and I became like this little worker bee. then, so I never really had those teenage years where I did the rebellious stage between 13 and 15. And then I knuckled down. was like, well, I've got to make...
I've got to be an adult now and I don't know about you, but I think sometimes if we don't allow them to make small mistakes and work it out, then they're not going to know who they are and where their boundaries are when they get to the actual big wide world.
Nikki (23:50)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. remember dad's rules were so strict and then other ways they were so loose. I won't even go into the the looseness in this discussion but at 15 I'm like I'm out of here. I'm like I went to mum's and mum didn't have any rules. She had none and so that's another hole that leaves you yeah and that leaves you feeling oh so vulnerable really and
Kristi McVee (24:10)
Cool.
Yeah.
Mm. There's always, it happens a lot, know.
Nikki (24:32)
because having some boundaries and some expectations are a good thing. so, and at 17, she, you know, told me to pack my bags and leave and I did. And then she wanted me back. I found a boyfriend and, you know, and by 19, I bought a house too. I was also just had a baby and not a very good relationship. But yeah, I just, yeah, absolutely.
Kristi McVee (24:49)
You're the same.
You're seeking out stability. think the thing to note,
I think the thing to note in all of that, right, for other people is that because we had such unstable, like those really formative views were really unstable and you were kind of pulled from pillar to post emotionally back and forth. When, if you don't have it in your home, that stability, you're gonna seek it out with the first person you find. And the first person won't,
Nikki (25:17)
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Kristi McVee (25:23)
always be the best person, right? So you person probably, let me just, and you don't have to, don't have to confirm this, but I'm guessing you probably met someone who was a little bit older than you and you settled down and, and you thought this is the, this is the person, this is the person's going to make me feel loved, safe and well, and healthy, happy. And of course that once that blinker comes off, it's not like that in the real world. Relationships take an energy time. And if there's a,
a power imbalance between the age group, then it's always, you're going to be the one who's not. That doesn't come out on top, right? Then add in another chart, add in another baby, you're still a baby. And you know, you think that you, and we always think, I don't know about you, but I thought at 16, 17, I knew fucking everything. I thought I was so smart. I had such worldly views. I know nothing, again.
Nikki (25:57)
Yeah.
You
Kristi McVee (26:13)
I know nothing about nothing and I'm 44. just turned 44 the other day. And, but at 18, 19, I thought I knew everything. I had a house, I was stable. thought I could, I thought I could dominate the world and you know, that's, but that's that again, that brain development, it tricks you into believing you're invincible. And yeah, and I think that's the thing about this is that we need to remember that if we don't set up that our kids for success in those early years,
Nikki (26:32)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (26:41)
They are going to stumble and fall and stumble and fall and stumble and fall for many years until they get to late adulthood or like they're for lot of men it's around 35 to 40 before they actually find their feet.
Nikki (26:53)
Yeah.
Yeah. And if we have, and I think that's where I like to bring in a message of hope because some people haven't known about how to teach kids protective behaviors and all of that kind of stuff when they're young. And now They might be sitting there with teenagers now and thinking, damn, I've really stuffed up. I haven't done all the things. You know, there is hope and there is ways of working with young people. It's not
Kristi McVee (27:14)
I stuffed up, yeah.
Nikki (27:22)
It's never too late to start. You know, we start now. We start when we, now that we know. And I think that forgiving ourselves for all that our parenting, when our kids were young, if we miss things, we might've missed some of their language. You know, like I often talk about language of harm, a child's language of harm, which is often nonverbal. It's often through behavior. We might've missed some of that.
Now that we are teen parents, I'm not a teen parent anymore, my youngest is nearly 22. Sometimes I think he's 22 going on too. I'm sure there's people that can relate to that. And yeah, and so, oh, I lost my train of thought. I started to go down another track.
Kristi McVee (28:01)
Yes.
were talking about,
well, no, you were talking about the language of harm, but you were also talking about you can start it from anywhere. Like don't think that because you missed it in the early years that you can't, and I say the same thing. You didn't know what you didn't know back then, but you know better now. So let's fix it, like repair that and do your best where you're at. So what are some of the things that they can do to repair or to start where they're at?
Nikki (28:16)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
and I think there's two ways to look at it. There's one way is what do parents need to do? What can they do? And what do teenagers need? And those two things need to kind of meet in the middle. They need to align. If we look at what parents can do is keeping communication open. That's so important.
Even when it seems like your teens don't want to talk to you, they just want to be in their room on their phone or whatever or out with their friends to keep communication open, find some ways to communicate. how about we go and have lunch at your favorite sushi place? Just finding some ways to keep communication open.
Do you want to invite your friends over this weekend? Maybe we can have a barbecue. There's lots of ways we can keep communication open without having to sit there and have a serious conversation about, know, things that might be going on. But being there and finding those moments that build connection, strengthen connection, that gives the message you are valued. I love you. I care about you.
I want to hang out with you sometimes, you know, and I'm always here for you if you need it. And some of those messages are through. We don't have to keep saying that it's how we show up and how and how we notice when something might not be okay. And just checking in, Hey, I noticed that you, you know, seem to be a bit off today or you know, is everything okay? And I think back to that, you know, are you okay day?
Kristi McVee (29:58)
Mmm. Yeah.
Mm.
Nikki (30:16)
You know,
that's not a day. That's, you know, checking in, especially when we think something's not quite okay.
Kristi McVee (30:20)
It's an everyday.
Hmm, I think like if I just add my little bit to this, I don't think that the conversations when things are like, obviously happening, are the most important. I think the actual important conversations are in between. So like you said, you know, having a barbecue with your, your child and their friends or inviting them to go to lunch, just the two of you or, you know, you know, just, I don't know, like for me and my daughter, sometimes we'll, I'll ask her to like,
Nikki (30:40)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (30:54)
do my eyebrows because she loves doing that. I mean, she's a teen, right? Can you do my eyebrows for me? And while she's there busy doing her eyebrows and my eyes are closed and she's plucking away the great visual. But, you know, I'll be like, so what's happening with your friends? Like, how's everyone going? Everyone OK? Like, you know, checking in with her, you know, how are you feeling? Like, and because she's busy doing something in that moment and she's not actually like under the interrogation.
Nikki (31:04)
I'm so sorry.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (31:23)
she
actually opens up, right? And other times that I've actually connected is when I've like been feeling like a failure or I've completely screwed this parenting gig up. Then one of the times that I realized that I was like, I had it in my head that I just didn't want her to be traumatized. You know, like I have all of this childhood trauma and I was like, I don't want to ever traumatize my child. And so I was constantly like thinking about trauma in that way. And then I had this realization that
actually, I can't prevent that. I can't prevent like just because I think that my trauma is like it trauma is a certain thing. Trauma is can be anything to anyone in any way. It's not trauma isn't trauma isn't what you think. It's what your body feels. It's it's there's like a whole thing to it right and so I was like my gosh I'm it doesn't matter what I do. She's going to find something that
Nikki (31:53)
No.
Yeah, absolutely.
Kristi McVee (32:18)
she's going to need therapy on that I did. You know, I was too protective or not protective enough or I swore at her at one stage when I was losing my shit or you know, like whatever, whatever it is. And so I had like this little bit of a cry about it. And then I just basically went to her and said, can I just, can I just share something with you that I'm feeling right now? I feel like I'm failing. Like, well, I just said, I feel like I'm failing you.
Nikki (32:21)
Yeah.
Mmm, I love that.
Kristi McVee (32:45)
And you know, I opened up to her about, know, how I was feeling as a parent and got really vulnerable with her. And, you know, every time I do that with her, she just she basically she's the most beautiful human and all our kids are like they all have their moments of beautifulness. But she was like, it's OK, mom. You've given me all the tools I need. You keep showing me what what I need to do. You know, I know you're always there, so it's going to be OK. And I'm like.
Nikki (33:07)
Not for me.
Kristi McVee (33:13)
I meant to be saying that to you and she, you know, but this is a thing. think we need to let our kids see that side of us, that fear that we're stuffing up, all of the things.
Nikki (33:21)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's part of, because the other thing that's really important for parents to do is to be a really good role model. And that's modeling, you know, being honest and open about how you're feeling. And you're human too, you know? And then that gives her permission to be human.
back, you know, and then another time she might say, well, can I just talk with you about something? You know, because you, yeah, yeah, like, we're not going to get it right. All the time as parents. And we also can't beat ourselves up.
Kristi McVee (33:50)
And she does, she does.
Well, we can, we do, and we try really hard not to. I always say to my child, but also like other parents, like, no one gave us a book, right? There's no book, there's no guide. You literally come into parenting from all of the, what your parents did and all of the social media is telling us to do. I said, and yet your child will throw a spanner in the works and give you a completely different freaking reaction. And you're like, what do I do here now? So.
Nikki (34:22)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (34:29)
It's
not something that we can predict or, and you can't strong arm your way through parenting because it doesn't work. Your kids will throw that out. Your dad had this idea that he, my dad had the same idea. Yeah, and yet we were off doing things. So you're right. Communication is key, doing all of that.
Nikki (34:37)
No.
Yeah, sorry that one and the other one.
Yeah, and also
linked with that is valuing their voice and respecting no matter what they are feeling or saying or expressing that you show them respect and value for what it is they are experiencing because when we come and try and suppress that, try and control that.
try to tell them how they should be behaving instead. You know, we can kind of, we're not really supporting their own self-expression and their own development. Of course, there's things that we might need to steer in a better direction, but valuing what it is they are really communicating. And that's when, we go back to language of harm, we are valuing what the child is communicating.
Kristi McVee (35:22)
Mm-hmm.
Nikki (35:37)
even if one, we didn't expect to hear it. Two, we don't agree with it. Three, it triggers us and takes us back to some memory that they don't even know about. And if we can kind of put that aside and be present and listen to what it is they're really communicating.
Kristi McVee (35:40)
Mmm.
Nikki (35:59)
because what they might be, behavior might be communicating something that words are too confusing for. Or they don't feel safe, they don't know. And I think back to a time where the worst day of my life happened. The worst day of my life, I was 17 years of age. I, a few days later, because I was in an absolute state, filled with fear.
Kristi McVee (36:07)
Hmm.
Nikki (36:27)
all of this stuff. couldn't walk down the street by myself. I was so afraid that something bad would happen to me. And I told my mum over the phone what had happened and her reaction was, this is what I'm talking about, Nikki. And then she went on to blame me. And we never ever spoke about it again. Now I don't have any bad feelings towards my mum for that because I know that it triggered something in her.
because I know part of her story. yeah, it's... I've gone down a bit of a side street.
Kristi McVee (37:03)
No, no, but I but what you just told me what you just said is very common, where it's very common for a young person, especially that almost adult age group. It's almost like we and I have this conversation with my husband all the time about our daughter, where he thinks that she should be acting like she's an adult. And yet
Nikki (37:09)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (37:24)
She's still a child. Even when she is 18, she will still have that same, it's not like you turn 18 and all of a sudden you get a new upgrade in your brain. It's a developmental, it takes time. It's like building blocks that take time to build. And he seems to think that she should have like full cognitive, you know, thoughts and functions. And I always laugh because we've been together so long. We were together at 15. And I say, mate,
Nikki (37:38)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (37:52)
When you were 17, you're an idiot and you're thinking your daughter should be doing this XYZ, freaking pull your head back in and remember what you were doing at 17. And stop freaking making her feel bad for not having it all together yet. And I think from an adult and from an expert perspective or from a professional perspective, we need to stop expecting and start listening and talking.
Nikki (37:55)
You
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, start listening and truly listening. Listening without blame, without bringing in shame and without judgment. And that's really hard to do as a parent, especially when in the earlier childhood years, you are there to tell them more about what to do, when to get dressed, what time we're you know.
this is what we're having for dinner, that kind of thing. then to kind of, yeah, put all that aside and listen. There's that whole thing going around, we listen and we don't judge, just sort of.
Kristi McVee (38:58)
Thank you for.
I know there's that whole thing, but guess what? We do judge sometimes inside our own brains. We just don't let it come out of our mouths. But one of the things that I think would help, I don't know, you give me your opinion on this. One of the things that helps me slow down and maybe not judge so quickly or maybe not always, but is to be curious as to why. I always say, why do you think like that? What is driving you to...
Nikki (39:07)
Yeah. Yes.
Yeah, I love that.
Kristi McVee (39:29)
want to do that? What is the reason for that? And I have like these like little little, you know, sentences that I throw out there. It's like, okay, that's interesting. I always say, that's interesting. Even if I think, well, that's stupid. that's, yeah, I'm like, that's a dumb idea. But you know, that's interesting. Why do you want to do that? Or what what did you where did you see that idea? Or what what made you think of that? You know, like, there's just a few things that I use as my
Nikki (39:32)
Yeah.
I'm thinking all this.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (39:56)
go-to responses to encourage that critical thinking. Because deep down, I want to say that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. You are going, that is going to fail. You know, whatever, like that's my parents in my head wanting to spew out. But then I've trained myself to say, that's interesting. What made you think of that? Or why do you want to do that instead? And you know, and that's what comes out of my mouth instead, you know, having those go-to
Nikki (40:02)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (40:22)
you know, phrases or statements or questions, you know, asking questions actually elicits more conversation. So instead of like talking at our kids, asking them questions about what's what, because most of the time they haven't thought it all through. Like they haven't got it all. yeah. Okay. That's really cool. But yeah, what what made you think of that idea? Like, where does that come from?
Nikki (40:29)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah, I love that. I love bringing in that curiosity. I must say that I am guilty of saying, that's a really dumb idea. How do you think that, you know, that's gonna have a good outcome. So I am guilty of doing that. And it's something I'm learning to not, you know, to not do and to kind of be curious about it. My daughter now who's
Kristi McVee (40:50)
Yeah
Sometimes it is.
Nikki (41:07)
knows me quite well, you know, she's a lot older, but she'll say, that's good psychology, mom. yeah, okay, I get this now. So they work it out. They work out our little tactics in the end. But, you know, it is really important to be curious. Yeah, that's right. And it does. But that curiosity is, is bringing in value, you know, is saying, I, you know,
Kristi McVee (41:19)
Hmm. Well, cause then they start using them themselves.
Nikki (41:32)
I'm interested in what meaning you give to that. Sometimes why, asking why can be confusing and sometimes teenagers don't want to go to the why. It's like, you know, sometimes it's a bit more of a surface level decision. It just might be, well, everyone's doing it, you know, and so how we can kind of explore that a bit deeper and help them make meaning to something. You know, what would that...
Kristi McVee (41:58)
Mm.
Nikki (42:00)
you know, what would that mean for you if you do make that decision? Like, what's, what's in it for you? Like, what are you hoping to get from that? And exploring the meaning that they're making to it.
Kristi McVee (42:05)
Mm.
Yeah, and because like, and here's how it's played out in not just my daughter's lives, but other children and other teens that I've spoken to, know, something simple as like, sharing a nude, right? And, you know, and this is, you know, every parent is probably going to have, and you might not even know it yet, but it's it could be happening, right?
Nikki (42:25)
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (42:34)
And I would say to a young person who's, you know, had their nude shared or like they've shared it and it's been, you know, exploited or whatever. I'd be, I'd be like, you know what? It's okay. You haven't done anything wrong because it's, it's quite normal to want to explore that and to go there. And you thought that you were doing it with someone safe, but I'm just, I'm just interested to know why, what, what, were you going through or what were you feeling at that moment? Because
Nikki (42:51)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (43:00)
when you know what you were feeling, when that comes up again, you might think twice next time. So let's try and find out what you were feeling. And generally, good 90 something percent of the time, it's either I was lonely, I wanted them to like me, I wanted, and it was exciting, or there was some sort of dopamine response that they were chasing, but they didn't. And like you said before, a lot of the time,
Nikki (43:17)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (43:26)
teens and young people don't actually understand what they're feeling underneath that. But so when you explore that and you go, well, what were you feeling? And a lot of the times they'll go, I don't know. And you're like, no, it's, look, hey, completely shame free zone here, like complete. But you know, when we understand this, we know when to maybe think twice next time. Like if we just go and do things without thinking them through, this is what happens. Like you don't want to be in this situation again.
Nikki (43:31)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I love how you, um, your first response was, it's okay. You know, this is normal that you wanted to do that. Or it's common, you know, it's, it's common. And because some young people, especially when they do share a photo and then it gets exploited, gets sent around places, it gets put up on Snapchat, all of that. And it happens to boys and girls, you know.
Kristi McVee (44:22)
Thank you.
Nikki (44:23)
It's not just boys doing it to girls. It happens the other way around as well. And that can feel so devastating. those are the kind of things that can lead to some really detrimental outcomes for young people. And so that it's okay. It's okay, we can work through this.
Kristi McVee (44:27)
all the time.
Mm.
Nikki (44:47)
you know we can do what we can to stop it from going anywhere else and and kind of normalizing it. It is common and there's some things that we can do moving forward.
Kristi McVee (44:55)
Whoa!
Yeah, well, and I mean, obviously we want that image to stop being shared. We want them to, you know, it to not go further. We don't want it to be exploited any further, et cetera. But, you know, sometimes that's out of our control. So we all we can do is really protect their space and their peace and help them understand, you know, you're not alone here. You're not you're not the only one. It's not just you.
Nikki (45:11)
That's right. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (45:23)
You know, those kinds of things. And I think as parents, we sometimes go into panic mode and we think, my gosh, why would they do that? We've talked about this. Well, they know this. You know what? As a teenager, I knew things that I shouldn't have done and I still did them anyway because that's what teenagers do. Like, let's not act like our kids know better.
Nikki (45:31)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, there's a risk taking play to development.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (45:48)
That's what teenagers do, they're just like that.
Nikki (45:50)
That's right. It isn't
about mistaking and discovering, you know, what you like, what you don't, who you are, being your own independent person, not what your parents have told you you need to be and who you are. Yeah. And normalizing those things, even like, do you know what? Millions of people have that same body part as you. You know, it's okay. can, you know, exploring that.
Kristi McVee (46:03)
Yeah.
Nikki (46:17)
you know what led to that and yeah.
Kristi McVee (46:20)
I'd love to explore a little bit more about those behaviours, know, those behaviours that teens might be doing or those risk-taking behaviours or whatever it is that it looks like. I'd like to just touch on that before we finish about, you know, what to watch out for if your teen, what your teen is doing or if they're doing something new that might just indicate that somehow something's going on bubbling under the surface or has happened. Yeah.
Nikki (46:32)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
The number one thing to, well, just a couple of number one things. One of them is to really be listening, like listening with your ears and your eyes, observing behaviors, not over, not becoming stalkerish or anything, but you know, just keeping your kind of listening ears on. And also,
I lost my key thought. I've done that a bit today. The other thing is this is we know our kids really well. And it's when we see a change in how they normally are, a change in their normal functioning. They used to love going out. They were bubbly. Now they don't want to go anywhere. They're quiet. They're withdrawn. And some kids are more passive. Some kids are
Kristi McVee (47:14)
That's okay, it happens.
Nikki (47:39)
you know, quieter than others. But if you know that your teenager has until this moment been a chatty, bubbly, extroverted, lively kid, and it's, it's more like a sudden change. It's not like a gradual change when we think about puberty and, you know, hormonal things and all of that sort of thing. But there's a sudden change in the way that they're showing up. The way that they're showing up
around maybe the way they're talking about their friends, the way they've been at home, maybe they don't want to, they've become disinterested in school. And so we're looking at that change in functioning, a change from who they usually are. And that's an indication that something isn't okay for them. And it may or may not be about something, you know, that's, you know, harmful, that's not...
it might not be somebody that somebody's done something to them what's harmful but something is going on for them. Yeah so hearing what they're saying noticing their behaviors they might suddenly not want to go to certain places that they used to love going so now suddenly they don't want to go and visit Auntie so-and-so. Now they don't you know they they might have
They might have been had a bit of a boyfriend and suddenly, you know, that seem a bit sad or depressed or withdrawn. They don't want to talk about him anymore.
It might be through their artwork. You might start to notice some things that they're drawing and scribbling on. And there's a lot of research has been done around kids' drawings and how you can notice that harm has occurred within those drawings. Suddenly their drawings have big sharp teeth.
Kristi McVee (49:17)
Yeah.
Nikki (49:30)
Or, and you know, you got to think about what's in at the moment. What's the craze? They might be into a favorite game. Like some kids love gaming. It might be connected to that, noticing. It might be the music they're listening to. And I can think back about kids that teenagers that I would notice when something's not okay by the type of music, suddenly the music's dark. Suddenly all the lyrics are about.
Kristi McVee (49:45)
Yeah.
Nikki (49:58)
really dark stuff. And but last week they loved the country music or you know and and so what they're listening to can be an indication of what they're feeling on the inside because they'll be connecting with the lyrics, connecting with the words, connecting with the type of sound.
Kristi McVee (50:04)
music.
Yeah.
That's a big one actually. I saw that in my own daughter when she was going through stuff, the lyrics that she listened to in certain phases really told a story about how she was internally feeling. That is such a massive thing actually. And for any, know, for most of us, we'll listen to the music that connects and resonates with us. So that's like, that's not something that I've actually considered before or really like connected.
Nikki (50:18)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (50:41)
But yeah, that's a massive one. I think from my experience, yeah, music was a big one. I'm not a drawer, but I would also add to that just spending some time watching what your child's watching on TikTok or on Instagram or whatever and seeing what accounts their algorithm's throwing up because their algorithm's based on what they spend time on. And if they're spending time on dark themes, themes that are about mental health or
Nikki (50:53)
Yeah
Kristi McVee (51:07)
self-harm or whatever and that's what keeps coming up in their algorithms then that's probably a good indication that they're either having thoughts or there's something that's going on underneath all of it because the algorithm is a representation of what they're spending time on and it just gives them more and more of it.
Nikki (51:12)
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah,
yeah, absolutely. And the other area that's important in terms of really hearing and listening to what's going on for your teenagers is what might their friends be saying and if you're not hanging out, you know, if you're not inviting their friends over, if you're Not offering to take, you know, your teenager and their best friend somewhere occasionally, then you're not building the connections with their friends.
Kristi McVee (51:41)
Mm.
Nikki (51:49)
Teenagers, so when children are young, if something happens to them, the person they are most likely to tell is their mum or their primary carer or their daycare teacher, you know, or their teacher. And as they start to get older, they're more likely to tell their friends.
And I've had, when I worked in complex case management, I've had referrals come to me because a young person has disclosed, a young person's friend has gone and disclosed what's happening to the young person. And so that connection with their friends is really, really important for lots of different reasons. And the friend might, the friends might, if you build trust,
Kristi McVee (52:23)
Yes, that happens a lot.
Hmm.
Nikki (52:36)
with your teen and their friends, then their friends might come and tell you stuff too. And some of that stuff might, your teenager might be connected with or might be at risk of. And...
Kristi McVee (52:48)
Yes, well, always is anyway. It's always
it is there's always a connection between what their friends are doing and what your team's doing. They're not an island. They're not isolated. So they're always they're either being dragged into it with it or they're being affected secondary. There's a secondary, you know, infection, I was about to say, but they're secondarily affected by it because they're the ones trying to support their friends going through something. So they're actually being affected as well. So, you know, I always
Nikki (52:57)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Kristi McVee (53:18)
I always said to my daughter, there's things that young people can handle and then there's always a line in the sand that is an adult problem that adults need to help you with. So let's keep an eye on things. Yeah, you can handle it to a point, but then mom's gonna have to step in and help because this is an adult problem now.
Nikki (53:36)
Yeah, yeah, and get to know where possible get to know the friends parents, you know, because that can give you lots of clues as to what might be going on in that friend. And I think, you know, back to the different things that happened in my teenage years. My parents don't know who any of those people are. They didn't know what happened and they didn't know who the people are and or who the person was in those each of those incidents, whereas
Kristi McVee (53:42)
Yeah, if you can.
Nikki (54:05)
For younger people, something does happen to them, we know that 90 % of when it comes to child sexual abuse, 90 % of offenders are known to the family. When it comes to adolescents, often the parents don't know the person.
Kristi McVee (54:29)
Well, they don't know the person, but the child knows the person because the child's interacting with them. Yeah, exactly.
Nikki (54:32)
That's right, and their friends, their friends
can often know the person.
Kristi McVee (54:37)
Yeah, yeah, I like that. That's probably one of the bigger ones. And I just went while you were talking, I was realizing that I had basically in this last 12 months lost connection with those friends, because my daughter's friends keep changing as she keeps aging, you know, she's going through year 12 now. And so I've kind of lost track of who's her friends, and they don't come over anymore. And they don't, you know, we were always the house that everyone came to. And then all of a sudden, she's got her own license. So she's just off doing her thing. And I realized,
Nikki (54:51)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (55:05)
wow, I really need to like probably, and it's not that it's a necessary need because my daughter does still talk to me about her friends and what's happening. You know, we've got that connection, but you know, what if those people need someone to talk to or a safe place? And I've always felt, you know, prided myself on being that for young people. So I probably like dropped the ball a little bit there. You just reminded me.
Nikki (55:19)
Yeah, that's Yeah.
Yeah.
you
Kristi McVee (55:32)
No, I mean, look, it happens how it happens and we do our best when we can and where we can. I think the thing is, is that you've just pointed out so many good things like, you know, pay attention, like just get to know your child, you know them the best really. You might feel like you don't in those teenage years, but you know the heart of your kids. You know who they are as a person and you know when things aren't that don't feel right or seem right and
Nikki (55:35)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (55:57)
Silence doesn't help in these cases. It's not about attacking them and going, what the hell's going on? Why are you acting like this? It's about doing it really subtly. And I use this term all the time, like coming in through the side door and like just sneaking in and, know, stealthing it into their world. Because sometimes if you try and do the front door entrance where you're going, what's going on?
Nikki (56:00)
No.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (56:22)
they're going
to shut down because they're worried that you're going to overreact or they're not sure yet or whatever. If you come in through the side door, which is through friends, peers, you know, talking about your own experiences, you know, all that vulnerability stuff, then they're kind of going to be taken underwars and they're going to feel safe to share. And then you, kind of patching those holes up anyway. So you lock that door as well. Yeah, I think that's a good reminder for everyone. And, and
Nikki (56:40)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (56:50)
Just, yeah, you've done amazing in explaining all of this, Nikki. And I think, you know, as a parent, I have struggled with some of this, but as I've learned more, I've done more and I've gone back and repaired and I've gone back and shared and it does work guys, it does work. Like don't think that you can get to teenagers and think, well, there's no hope now. I've lost them. Yeah.
Nikki (57:04)
Yes. Yes.
Yeah, yeah, there's always how we start from where we are now. Because that's all we actually have is now and yeah, it's where we start.
Kristi McVee (57:24)
Exactly.
Well, and I will say
this, I will say this. I know I can respect you for when you said, don't blame my mom because that's who like where she was at. Because I've actually had conversations as an adult with my parents about how my childhood was. And although they didn't sit there and go, I'm so sorry, I did this to you. Because I came from a space of look, didn't like, I just
I know my side of the story, I'd just love to hear yours. And I came from that space and where I was like, I just want to understand your side of the story because I know what I went through and what I feel. I'd love to know what you felt and what you were going through. And when I did that, well, I don't know how I come up with these things, but they just come out of my mouth. But when I did that to both my parents, they kind of like...
Nikki (57:57)
nothing.
Yeah, I love that.
Kristi McVee (58:16)
and then shared it and I was able to get a better understanding. Therefore I was able to accept that they didn't actually really know what they were doing. They didn't have control over it. They didn't actually, they had all of their own traumas up behind it and they didn't do anything on purpose. They weren't mean and horrible, nasty people. Otherwise I wouldn't have anything to do with them today.
Nikki (58:28)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, they're doing their best at that time. You know, my parents were teenagers when they had me, you know. That's right. Yeah, that's I love that. I love how you've shared that. I haven't quite got to that space, but...
Kristi McVee (58:44)
how funny that you weren't much older.
Yeah.
Well, I had to do it and I said this in some other interview the other day, I had to do it because I was writing about my own childhood in my first chapter of the book and I was like, I wrote it down and then I realized like, shit, if I'm gonna print this, I'm gonna have to talk to my parents and tell them what I've And you know, it's a very, the version in the book because the book isn't about me, it's about my experiences and what I know.
Nikki (59:15)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (59:24)
about child sexual abuse and my experience as a detective. So it isn't about my childhood or my story, but I figured, you know, people needed to know who I was. So I had to write about my childhood. And then when I was writing about my childhood, it made me second guess or like I came from a different perspective. It's so interesting for anyone out there who's got trauma, write it down, write down your story and watch you just.
Nikki (59:40)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (59:46)
because don't know, maybe it was just where I was at in the journey, but I was able to see it from a different lens, like from looking down. And when I looked down, I was like, huh, I don't think my parents did, like, yes, that was my experience, but I don't actually think they knew what they like, they did it on purpose now. I saw it from such a different lens. And I highly recommend everyone, you know, with any trauma you have is to just really like take that.
Nikki (59:53)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (1:00:14)
time to write it out. It's so cathartic and healing.
Nikki (1:00:16)
Yeah, I-
I agree with that. In 2023, was a co-author in Voices of Impact, volume three, which became a bestseller. And that was the first time I shared some of, and it's very mild, some of my title-coded experience and what led me into being so passionate about title protection. The day that that got released into the big world, I just wanted to crawl under a rock.
Kristi McVee (1:00:34)
Yeah.
I know.
Nikki (1:00:46)
It
was just that feeling like, what have I done? Because I spend all these years as a professional with the professional hat on. And you don't talk about your own experiences. And I love how that has become so much more valued. I'm absolutely with you in that writing it down. And it is a way of releasing it. And also, I come back to when we stay silent, the voices of many go.
unheard. And I'm finding my own voice in terms of my own adolescent and childhood experiences so that I can also unsilence others so that we can start to hear what young people might be trying to say.
Kristi McVee (1:01:31)
my gosh, that is the perfect thing to finish on. You just gave me chills. Absolute chills, Nikki, because you're right. Every time we speak up, we allow someone else to have find their voice.
Nikki (1:01:43)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (1:01:45)
I love that. That was the perfect ending. You just brought in the gold at the end. You brought in the gold at the end. Thank you so much, Nikki. Now I know that you have lots of hats on, but if anyone wants to connect with you or to find out more about what you do, where do they find you?
Nikki (1:01:48)
I gave myself response.
I do have a website, nickybutler.com.au. As simple as that, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn. And I've got a few research articles that I've written around, not research articles, articles that I've written about youth offending and also the impact of parental addiction on children and young people.
Kristi McVee (1:02:08)
Perfect.
Yeah.
Perfect.
Mmm.
Nikki (1:02:33)
So yeah, very active on LinkedIn. Happy for anyone to message me. All my details are on my website. You can email me, you can phone me. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (1:02:44)
Amazing.
I'll make sure I put the links in the show notes so that people can find you. So if they want to have a conversation or they might want to have you come and talk or whatever, but thank you so much again. Thank you for giving up your time and just having a beautiful conversation with me about all of this because I think every one of us, even people listening have something to add into this space and to learn from.
Nikki (1:02:49)
Yeah, okay.
Kristi McVee (1:03:09)
I even, I learn every time I have these conversations. So thank you so much, Nikki.
Nikki (1:03:14)
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's really, yeah, an amazing conversation and lots of reflections for me to take into the day. And yeah, thank you.
Kristi McVee (1:03:27)
Thank you for listening to this episode. Education empowers children, strengthens parents and most importantly, prevents abuse. That's why I do this work and that's why you're here. So truly thank you. If you'd like more support or resources, follow me on social media under Kristi McVee or cape-au where you'll find all the links in the show notes. You can also grab a copy of my book, Operation KidSafe, a detective's guide to child abuse prevention at www.cape-au.com
where you'll find further resources and self-paced courses to help you in this journey of protecting your kids. If you found this episode valuable, please take a moment to leave a review or share it with someone important. Your support helps more parents and caregivers discover this important information and take action to keep kids safe. Check the show notes for extra links and support. And most importantly, thank you for showing up and taking action to protect your kids. See you next time.
