Diane Tarantini (00:02)
We want kids to be aware, not scared. But is there anyone in your life who's making you nervous, anxious, or afraid?
So that gets at the anyone. every time I stand in front of a group of kids and get ready to talk, I say, I think to myself, if I'd had a body safety assembly, if I'd known, if I'd had somebody ask me, is everything okay? Do you feel safe? A lot of doctors and nurses are starting to ask that just with regular checkups.
Are you safe in your home? Are you safe in your life? But to ask kids if they need a grand-up's help with anything and to ask them if anyone. But you have to keep asking.
Kristi McVee (00:31)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee - Intro (00:39)
Welcome to Conversations with Kristi I'm Kristi McVee a former WA police officer, specialist child interviewer and child abuse detective. For years I worked on the front lines investigating child sexual abuse, where I saw the risks, the patterns and most importantly, the ways that we can protect our kids. Now I'm here to share that knowledge with you. This podcast is all about real conversations, giving parents, carers and educators the tools to keep their kids safe, both in person and online.
Through survivor stories, expert insights and practical advice, we'll navigate these tough topics together so you feel informed, confident and empowered. Because when we know better, we can do better and our kids deserve nothing less. CONTENT WARNING Some topics and conversations can be triggering for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised as your mental health is important. Please refer to my website and the show notes for available support services.
Kristi McVee (01:36)
Good morning and welcome back to Conversations with Kristi. Well, it might not be morning for you, but it's morning for me. And I'm here with the wonderful Diane Tarantini, who is all the way over in West Virginia, USA. And it makes me so happy to connect with people from all over the world talking about this. I know it's not a happy subject for some people, but for me, it's happy that we can connect and talk about this all over the world because every conversation that we're having around these topics is changing our
child safety, it's changing our futures, it's breaking down that generational trauma. So Diane, thank you so much for coming and chatting to me. And I know for anyone who's listening, we've had a little bit of like time zone problems. We didn't know whether we were doing it now or in 12 hours time. It's been an interesting morning. So thanks. Thanks for.
Diane Tarantini (02:27)
I am very glad to be here. Thanks
so much for having me.
Kristi McVee (02:31)
I love that when I said, hey, I'm here if you want to jump on it, you're like, yep, I'm here. I love that we didn't have to stress about it. And I was explaining to Diane that this is a very conversational podcast. We're not like strict on what we're talking about. It can go anywhere. So yeah, I hope that people understand just how easy it is because we don't have to make it all, you know, it is difficult topics, but we don't want to make it so that we
you know, it's not, ⁓ what's the word I'm looking for? It's like we're humans, we've got human lives, we're trying to just do the best we can and I tell you what, at the moment I'm just doing the best I can. I was explaining to Diane that my husband Brad, he's been in hospital, he's having cancer treatment at the moment and...
It's gone haywire. His body's just doing all sorts of weird stuff. he thought he was, I think he thought he was going to get away with not having like any symptoms from his treatment. And then next thing, bam. And he was totally thrown for a loop. you know, he's been in hospital for four days now and he's, he's actually getting ⁓ released today, released like he's in prison. He probably thinks it's like prison.
⁓ But yeah, anyway, so that's enough about me. We're here to talk with Diane about her. She's an author. I'm not going to tell you everything. She's going to tell you all about herself, but she's an author. She's written a children's book and an adult and a memoir. She's a body safety educator and yeah, doing the work where a lot of people don't want to talk about this stuff, right? So Diane, tell everyone about yourself because I want to we want to hear all about you.
Diane Tarantini (04:13)
Okay, I often tell people that ever since the fourth grade, I've known two things. One, I'd get counseling and two, I'd write a book. it's strange when I reflect back that at nine years old, I knew I'd need professional counseling to...
get help for what I'd been through. But I also think that that knowing, like a friend of mine, it's odd when you write a book like this, a memoir of ⁓ difficult childhood circumstance, people that have known you for 40 years will read it and go, how did I not know? ⁓
Kristi McVee (04:58)
Yeah.
Diane Tarantini (05:01)
And it's just because survivors hide it well until they can't hide it anymore. But one of my friends has said, I don't know how you survived it. I said, I think the two things that I always, they were like goals. They were like goal posts and heading towards those, that's what.
helped me stay sane kind of thing. But my story is that I was one of four children. My mother was a registered nurse and my father was a university professor of psychology and
Kristi McVee (05:44)
No.
Diane Tarantini (05:48)
With my siblings, had ⁓ a brother. I'm the only girl. I'm the youngest child. I had a brother who was five years older than me. And ⁓ he sexually, emotionally, and physically abused me and another one of our brothers. ⁓ And I disclosed three different times, like once as a teenager, once when I was ⁓ pregnant.
⁓ And then later when I went through counseling. And counseling is expensive, so I asked my parents to babysit for my children and to help us afford counseling. But now, the line I've been using recently is as a body safety educator.
and as an author and I do live events and I do a lot of education on social media. I, it's my goal to make lemonade out of the bitter lemons of my childhood. I don't want it to be for nothing. I, not to put pressure on anybody, but if you're built to speak publicly and about hard things, this is a great, it's definitely played a significant part in my healing.
⁓ to help prevent or help people navigate it if it happens in their family. ⁓ So yeah, and I love that your podcast is called Conversations with Kristi because my number one child safety tip is to have conversations with your children or the kids you love, whether you're a
we call them foster parents in the US or an educator or a grandparent, just to assure a child there's no dumb questions, there's no topic that's off limits, and I am the safe person that loves you deeply and will get you whatever kind of help you need. It's all rooted in conversation, Kristi
Kristi McVee (07:58)
Yeah, totally. that's why that's why no subject should be taboo in your family. No subject, you know, and and why we need to have conversations about these topics, because for so long they've been and you know, no, we didn't talk about it. We don't talk about it. You know, I know I've had survivors come to me and say, you know, when they tried to disclose they were basically shut up, told to shut up and don't go there, you know. And so that
is that's why conversations are so so vitally important. So yeah I agree with you.
Diane Tarantini (08:35)
if you've heard the statistic, I heard it about two years ago and I often tell it. The average age at which a person will disclose that they experience sexual trauma as a child is 52 years old. So I was 35, I was a really angry mom. I never hit my children but I yelled a lot and that's what sent me to the doc and
Kristi McVee (08:53)
What? I haven't heard that stat.
you
Diane Tarantini (09:04)
did antidepressants a lot and then at some point, he was such a dear man and he just said, sometimes antidepressants are only a bandaid for a deeper problem. Is there a deeper problem? And like in that moment, as a survivor, I had to weigh, do I tell the secret I've kept for three decades? ⁓
Kristi McVee (09:18)
So true
Diane Tarantini (09:32)
Or do I just keep it hidden? And I chose to tell and that was, that got me into counseling and that just starts your healing journey. And that's one thing I tell kids in body safety, in body safety assemblies, when I'm in front of like 300, do y'all call it middle school? Like when they're like 10 to 13 years?
Kristi McVee (09:36)
you
In the middle.
No, we don't. But I we hear that term a lot from the US. So we do understand that it's like that tween years like those in between years.
Diane Tarantini (10:03)
Yeah. Yeah.
And I've started doing high school, which is more older kids like 12 to 17. This year, I used to be afraid of them because I literally, I thought I thought I might get heckled. You you just you see like TV shows where kids are just really brutal. And I was worried. But when
Kristi McVee (10:13)
We've got trauma from school. ⁓
Horrible.
Diane Tarantini (10:29)
you to win any human authentically and honestly tells their story for the benefit of others. Like the chit chat stops in just this year and this has been so beautiful and maybe it's because I'm adding in
Kristi McVee (10:42)
Yeah.
Diane Tarantini (10:49)
like the the missing link because I've always told them my abuse I'm a survivor of child sexual abuse it was familial, intrafamilial sexual abuse incest. It was peer to peer. It was another kid and I tell the kids I look them and there are 300 pairs of eyes. I said kids listen to me this is the fastest growing one of the fastest growing categories.
of child sexual abuse is kids doing it to kids. And I tell them one of the reasons I want you to disclose is because this creates a significant emotional wound. And you are going to need a professional to help you through the anger, resist the urge to self-medicate. ⁓
Kristi McVee (11:20)
Yes.
Diane Tarantini (11:44)
You know, we see all kinds of ramifications of suicidal ideation. You know, there's a lot of hearts. It's so hard to be a young person these days. Oh my goodness, yes.
Kristi McVee (11:55)
Yeah.
And
then add on the trauma and the wound of being abused in the home by ⁓ a parent or a sibling or someone in your home that should be keeping you safe should not be doing that. And it has lifelong ramifications.
Diane Tarantini (12:11)
Yes.
It
really does. I've done... I quote darkness to light all the time. Are you familiar with that organization? I love their statistics. And they've got a statistic that I use a lot. I think it's an old statistic and I think it needs to be... research needs to be done. They say that of all child sexual abuse, 34 %...
Kristi McVee (12:26)
No.
Diane Tarantini (12:45)
of the incidents are initiated by family, either primary or extended family. I had a woman, I was at a conference in Washington DC last summer, and I had a woman from Tennessee come up to me and say, she had a much more Southern accent than I did. And she said, in Tennessee, it's 60%. So it's a David Finkelhor.
Kristi McVee (13:10)
Yeah, we.
Diane Tarantini (13:13)
Statistics, but it's from 2012, that 34%. I know.
Kristi McVee (13:17)
Yeah.
We've got more, we've got updated
statistics in Australia from 20. Yeah, so there was a research by the Australian Bureau of Statistics in Australia. And I mean, look, there definitely needs to be more research, but the research showed that for females, for girls, it's 47 % of adult, sorry, 47 % of abuses by a family member, 25 % by extended family, 15 % by fathers and 6 % by brothers.
Diane Tarantini (13:21)
You do?
Kristi McVee (13:48)
step brothers. Yeah I will.
Diane Tarantini (13:49)
my goodness, I'm going to ask you to send me those stats. Yeah,
that's in the peer groups I'm in. I am in one that's nothing but siblings, sexual abuse and trauma survivors. But in every other peer group, the most common pairing is father daughter. And I know we're not supposed to compare our trauma experiences. But I tell you what, when I think of a father, especially a blood
Kristi McVee (14:07)
Yeah, it's massive.
Diane Tarantini (14:17)
relative father. It's a gut punch to me. I can't imagine that. But then they, you know, other people are like, my gosh, it was your brother. Ew. Which is what the school kids often do. And I just give them permission. I'm like, it's, it's, it is. Right. Yes.
Kristi McVee (14:22)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's uncomfortable and it's gross and it's like it shouldn't happen and but it does and
you know before we started recording I mentioned how you know we don't in policing in investigation work I did have some cases where it was stepbrothers or brothers but it wasn't usually the parents who were bringing their children to the police station you know reporting the abuse ⁓ it was either historical or it was so years gone by when they were an adult and they were reporting it or
or if it was in real time when it was actually happening, it was because the victim survivor was actually reporting it to a safe adult outside of the home, so someone else. And so it would be like a teacher or a coach or a friend's parent or something would report the sibling sexual abuse and then it would be a mandatory report and police would get involved. But you know, in those cases, parents are like, what do I do? My 15 year old son is abusing my 10 year old daughter.
Diane Tarantini (15:12)
Okay.
⁓
Kristi McVee (15:31)
daughter
like what do do with this it's a nightmare and and they're quite often they stand with the abuser or the perpetrator because you know that both children needed support and the victims getting support in the fact that they've said something but they're perpetrator well why is he doing you know and I don't think we actually understand why a lot not so much why but you know like you said it's the growing
Diane Tarantini (15:32)
It's your nightmare.
Kristi McVee (16:00)
I mean the stats are very up and down but it's about 30 to 50 % of all child sexual abuses by another child. But every time I talk about it...
I get parent after parent telling me that their children are being abused in daycare centers, childcare centers, early childhood education. They're being abused by other children, you know, and we're considering it. We use the terminology harmful sexualized behaviors in Australia as, you know, ⁓ as an explanation. So a child is harming another child. So and the thing is, is that
I always put it back to them and say, you know, this is terrible, support your child, but what's happening in that home of that child who's actually doing it, you know, no five year old knows to go and insert things, you know, yes, they can sell it. Anyways, like we're going off track. But I think what what it is is that we just don't think parents don't think that we need to educate our children as young as two and three years old about this stuff and how to educate it.
Diane Tarantini (16:56)
Right, right.
Yeah, we had a school we did five in one day last month. And the school asked us not to talk about sexting with the fifth graders. And we're like, or consent. They didn't want us to cover either topic. yeah, Peter Yates talks about this.
Kristi McVee (17:08)
Yeah, but they're doing it.
But consent is in everything.
Diane Tarantini (17:21)
He said, one thing we're finding is that grown-ups, including professionals and social workers, have a hard time grasping that a child can harm a child sexually. They just believe that little kids are sweet and innocent and wouldn't do anything to anybody's private parts, but it is happening.
Kristi McVee (17:44)
Especially
with the fact that we've got such unrestricted, unsupervised access to the internet with most kids today and they've got access to seeing adult content that they wouldn't usually see. We've got older siblings and older kids showing things that they see to younger children. They do it to each other because it's what they've seen. It's not like, you know, we've... And also, you know, it gets written off or it gets just dismissed by it's just kids being kids. No, I'm sorry.
Diane Tarantini (17:59)
Yes.
Yes.
Kristi McVee (18:14)
Sorry, it's not kids being kids. Kids don't do this to each other unless they have a re- like they've been shown it or seen it.
Diane Tarantini (18:20)
Right. Yeah,
I did. I attended Darkness to Light's virtual conference, like during the pandemic, and it was the first time I'd heard a number higher than 40%. That was the number that I'd always heard as I started being a body safety educator. And then three times, like in the course of three days, they said it could be as high as 70%. So...
like my first degree at university was journalism and I had have a blog. And so I did, I just did the research to find out why are, why is peer to peer ⁓ child on child sexual abuse increasing. And it led me to pornography. And unfortunately, one of the most ⁓ searched themes
on pornographic websites is incest or siblings or parents.
Kristi McVee (19:20)
You just have to look at the porn hub.
You just have to look at the porn hub front page and it's like sister brother, mom daughter, mom son, like father stepdaughter or whatever, you know, and so it's just like and there's so many of those categories and it's just like well what
Diane Tarantini (19:27)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (19:36)
if that's what people are saying and if that's and then you you talk about not talking about sexting and not talking about consent but if this is how our children are learning about sex because we're not talking about it and we're not having those conversations then they go to porn and that's what they're seeing and then I have this theory that we're going to see a massive increase in child exploitation ⁓ and child abuse because of the unrestricted by younger men it's get the age
Diane Tarantini (19:47)
Right.
Yes.
⁓
Kristi McVee (20:06)
We used to see dirty old men. Now we've got men in their 20s being charged with having child abuse material on their computers because they're being led there through freaking porn. I mean, it's not an excuse, but I'm saying that where are we leading our men? Where are we leading our young boys and our men if we're not having these conversations and sharing with them why?
Diane Tarantini (20:08)
Yes. Yep.
Yes.
Right.
Yes!
Kristi McVee (20:35)
We need
to be careful what we're consuming and why this is dangerous.
Diane Tarantini (20:41)
There was a source that I used it ended up I thought it was going to be one blog post and it ended up being three but there was a source that ⁓ I think they did about they interviewed about 1500 teens and it was the common sense media report on teens and pornography and so the first blog post I wrote was why is your child looking at porn?
Kristi McVee (20:47)
As it happens.
Diane Tarantini (21:05)
And sometimes it's a mistake, it just pops up. Sometimes a kid shows it on the bus. But often, they're going to a Kristi for Sex education because the parents aren't teaching it or talking about it, and the schools aren't teaching it or talking about it. But then, you and I know that ⁓ they get way more than they bargained for because they get misogyny, they get racism.
Kristi McVee (21:15)
Exactly.
Diane Tarantini (21:33)
and they get the violent and aggressive sex, which I haven't talked about this a lot on podcasts, but I was doing a YouTube sex ed lecture series and the woman the week before me was talking about the rise of rough sex. I don't know if you've heard about this at all. She's brilliant. Debbie Herbineck, her book, Yes, Your Kid. I mean,
Kristi McVee (21:56)
Yeah, yeah, I have, yeah.
Diane Tarantini (22:02)
We have teen girls getting choked during making out. That's not okay. So it's like, just when I think I know everything, just when I think I've heard everything, just when you think it can't get worse. And I asked this researcher, was like, Dr. Debbie, if a school would let me talk about this for five minutes during a body safety assembly, what should I say? And she said,
I won't let you talk about this. There's no way. But she said, if you could, you have to tell them that sexual choking is strangulation. And it comes with the risk of death and brain damage and losing your sense of smell and sexual trauma. She tells this story. Is this okay to talk about? Okay.
Kristi McVee (22:46)
Brain damage.
Yeah, this is output that there will be
a content warning at the start and you know, and people are used to these kinds of conversations in this podcast.
Diane Tarantini (23:01)
Yeah,
she told one story about a young man in a monogamous relationship being asked by his female partner ⁓ to be choked, strangled, whatever. And Kristi, she lost consciousness for like three minutes and he literally thought he killed his girlfriend. And now he has sexual trauma. don't know if, yeah, that's another...
Kristi McVee (23:13)
choker.
scary.
Yeah, he probably
can't get it up anymore.
Diane Tarantini (23:31)
Right.
And that's another downside of pornography, Like so many young men have erectile dysfunction.
Kristi McVee (23:39)
I know.
Yeah, and I was just about to say in my book, just before I left the police, I met an ED nurse in Western Australia and
she was saying that in that week and I wrote it in my book that five teenage girls had come to the ED with torn ⁓ anal tears because they had been having anal sex where their partner, which is another teenage boy, didn't know what he was doing, and you know we've got cases in Australia where girls have basically been had to have hysterectomies as teenagers because they've had their whole you know so we've
got cases we don't even need to keep you know like going this is damaging kids it is damaging kids it's damaging their future relationships with I had a social worker the other day say to me
Diane Tarantini (24:26)
It is. Yes.
Kristi McVee (24:32)
⁓ She's got a 12 year old who came to her work because he's got porn addiction. ⁓ A 12 year old has got porn addiction and he is completely petrified that he will never be okay again. And you know, we've got so many issues here, but the reason why we're talking about it is because what we're seeing, massively seeing is an increase in peer on peer abuse. And it's definitely because of porn. And when I first started, and I've said this over and over again,
Diane Tarantini (24:45)
my goodness.
It definitely is, yes.
Kristi McVee (25:01)
When I first started in the police, when we saw children harming other children, peer on peer abuse, we naturally assumed that they had been sexually abused. Because we saw that, right? That was in 2010. In 2020 when I left, we were seeing so many cases of peer on peer abuse that we, and when we investigated it was because more often than not, it was because of porn. So in 10 years period, we saw such an increase in peer based abuse.
Diane Tarantini (25:10)
Yes!
Kristi McVee (25:31)
abuse.
⁓ so this is the thing, if you don't want your children to harm other children, and this is a big statement I'm about to make people, if you don't want your child to harm other children, first of all, teach them body safety, talk about consent and talk about pornography before it's too late, because they will if they see it, they and they don't know these things, they may do it to someone else.
Diane Tarantini (25:54)
Yes.
Yeah, I spoke. ⁓ my goodness. I spoke at a big Catholic church last year and I do this presentation that's called What Keeps a Body Safety Educator Up at Night. I talk about sex abortion. I talk about child on child sexual abuse and then I actually do talk about ⁓ the rough sex component. But there was a woman there. She was a licensed counselor. She was there in case anybody was triggered and needed to talk. And she told me that
Kristi McVee (25:58)
goodness.
great.
Diane Tarantini (26:24)
when it's peer to peer that she read a study that 50 % of it or child on child, ⁓ minor on minor 50 % of the victims are like your your same age peer, but then 50 % are the little peewees that just happen to be at hand. Like, I want to do what I just saw. I'm going to show it to you and we're going to video like there's like so many. Absolutely.
Kristi McVee (26:53)
Well...
Diane Tarantini (26:53)
horrendous
scenarios that like CACs and emergency room nurses are hearing. But that was really interesting. I hadn't heard that specific that 50 % are kind of same age and maybe a date gone bad or like after like, have you heard that that like the hour, the couple hours after school and before mom and dad get home, those are witching hours. It's just lack of supervision, but we can't. ⁓
Kristi McVee (27:04)
So 50%. Yeah.
Diane Tarantini (27:23)
I work with organizations, some organizations are like, equip the kids. And some organizations are like, it is not the kids job to keep themselves safe. We've got to keep them safe. And I'm like, you guys, we have to do both. We have to do both because.
Kristi McVee (27:35)
It's a both sides. I know.
And I don't know about you, but I grew up in like, my parents were like, see you at dark. And.
Diane Tarantini (27:45)
Yes! They'd
ring the bell for us to come in.
Kristi McVee (27:48)
When the
lights come on, you need to be back in this house. And so I could have been running a drug ring for all they knew and they wouldn't know what I was doing during the day. I mean, it's only through, and I wasn't by the way, I was a very, very good girl. I didn't do anything that I wasn't meant to do. I was too scared of my parents. the thing was is that...
Diane Tarantini (27:57)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (28:10)
We grew up in that generation where basically we had no supervision and then when we were parented, it was only when we fucked up basically. Like you were yelled at, screamed at, punished, smacked. ⁓
you know, whatever it was today is generous. And so I think that's kind of left us emotionally stunted because we don't know how to parent. We think that, well, do we, you know, some of us, some of us, I'm saying some of us, because, you know, some of us are like completely the opposite. We're controlling everything because we didn't have any control when we were kids or we didn't, or we're just, a lot of parents are now just giving it like hands off. This is what my parents did. You know, so there has to be a little bit, like you said, I get criticized if I don't mention
Diane Tarantini (28:41)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (28:53)
it's not a child's job to ⁓ protect themselves.
It's not a child's job to protect themselves from child abuse, but we can't leave them with no idea what's happening to them. Because I talk about it in my social media, know, some kids don't even know they're being abused because they've been groomed and they just think that this is normal. And a lot of people, and I'm sure you speak to survivors about this as well, you know, it's not until they become an adult or they become a teen and they realize that wasn't normal.
Diane Tarantini (29:04)
Yep. Yep.
Exactly.
Kristi McVee (29:24)
That's not actually what people do, but it was normal for them as a child.
Diane Tarantini (29:26)
Yes. So
that's the importance of body safety assemblies in my opinion. Because I believe that when I stand in front of kids and tell them no one, I've tweaked this recently, no one, not a stranger, not a friend, not a family member, should look at, touch, or take pictures of your bathing suit body parts, your private parts.
Kristi McVee (29:55)
Yeah.
Diane Tarantini (29:56)
⁓ because I've got to get the family in there. You got to get your, you know, family covers incest, friends covers peer to peer and stranger causes strange or covers stranger danger, which is really not a thing. ⁓ but I believe that if the, if the abuse is familial is inter familial incest and it's caused by an adult, the adult is in the position to world build, to tell you what's right.
Kristi McVee (29:59)
Yeah.
Not as much as we him.
Diane Tarantini (30:26)
to tell you what's wrong. All fathers do this. I'm getting you ready for when you get married someday. Or this is just a little game we do. This is what, yeah, this is what happens in families. And so for me and my partner to stand in front and say it's illegal, it's stinking illegal for a grownup to do anything of a sexual nature with a child. And now also with
Kristi McVee (30:47)
Yeah.
Diane Tarantini (30:56)
peer-to-peer, you know, there can be prosecution depending on where you live. We can re-educate them in the event that they've been taught incorrectly, incorrect values.
Kristi McVee (31:10)
Mmm.
Well,
and that's what perpetrators do, they groom. you know, kids can even groom each other. So it's not that, it's because they, you know, if we see statistically with the peer to peer abuse, harmful sexualized behaviors, the most common age that is harming other children. So if we look at the most common age is the prepubescent, perpubescent age. So the 10 to 15-ish age, the most likely victim.
Diane Tarantini (31:39)
Okay.
Kristi McVee (31:42)
or the child being harmed is the 4-3 to 9.
So we're looking at children who are going through puberty, harming children who are not going, who are younger, don't have knowledge, are naive and they don't know what's happening or they don't have the power, like the strength and power to control what's happening. They can't, you know, and then so, you know, if you've got a 10 plus year old child saying, you know, and they've seen it, they've got, they're going through puberty, they've got those urges. And this is the thing that I want parents to understand, anyone listening to understand.
Children don't get to 18 and then all of sudden I'm a sexual being.
Diane Tarantini (32:22)
Right.
Kristi McVee (32:23)
We're seeing children who we know that children as young as two and three masturbate because they know they realize that their genitals feel good when they touch them. Right. So and it's not that it's bad, wrong or anything else. It's that we just need to educate them that this is a private part and this is we do these things in private that we don't do it to anyone else and they don't do it to us. And as they progress, we talk about the fact that, you know, these are like you said, no one stranger, peer or family touches our private parts, takes a video.
Diane Tarantini (32:31)
Yes!
Yes.
Yes.
Kristi McVee (32:53)
or looks at it. ⁓ And that's because this is our body and we teach body autonomy. It's not even a thing when you start these conversations at a very young age. It's not even a thing. Kids aren't scared. They're just like, no, my body is my body. And yeah.
Diane Tarantini (33:05)
Right. Right.
Yeah, ⁓
it's a weird thing to comprehend a child grooming another child. But when I was doing developmental edits to my memoir, I did a deep dive into a whole bunch of emails that my brother who was also abused sent me. And I say this in the book, but ⁓
And I never give details because I think humans will fill in all those details. So you don't need to get super specific or yeah graphic about abuse. But he tells the story of our older brother saying if you do this, I'll play flashlight tag with you.
Kristi McVee (34:01)
See that's grooming.
Diane Tarantini (34:02)
And it broke my heart. just, that like gives you a snapshot in time. When you think back, like I was totally in grade school when I was playing flashlight tag. And for that to be the lure, ⁓ just like to spend time with your big brother, like outside with the fireflies, that kids can groom. And some of it is just like.
instinctive. It's about them getting what they want. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (34:31)
Well, it's about them getting what they want so they'll give you what you want. And
whatever was going through your big brother's mind at that time, he only cared about what he wanted. And so he was only worried about what he wanted and at whatever cost, whatever I need to do to get what I want. so whether we can't, I don't know the full story of your, and I'd love to ask more questions about it, but,
Diane Tarantini (34:43)
right.
Kristi McVee (35:01)
whatever reason he had that for doing that and for saying that, he knew what he was doing. He knew because he was bartering and he was putting, dangling a carrot in front of him. So that is intent.
Diane Tarantini (35:07)
Yes.
Yeah, that's another thing. Gosh, I had this fabulous ⁓ developmental editor. I interviewed three and I picked one. She was at American Living in France. And ⁓ I did Zooms with the three of them and then picked the one who I thought would do the best job. And she said, I know my mother's a survivor. She's never told me much. And I feel like this project would help me understand more. And she goes, and I have so many psychotherapists in my family.
I think it might come in handy, like if you need somebody to weigh in on something. ⁓
as she ended up sending me like 30 different questions, which in writing we call those are the gaps, right? Right to the gaps. Like you literally have someone telling you, you forgot to say this. I need to know more about this. How old were you here? And I realized that, and it's, it's kind of goes without saying, but I wasn't just me and my brother weren't just sexually abused. We were also emotionally abused just
Kristi McVee (36:04)
Take care.
Diane Tarantini (36:21)
bullied like you wouldn't believe and physically abused just like and there's a scene in my book and it's it's verbatim from an email my ⁓ fellow abuser brother wrote me that like there was a time when our brother who was so powerful and and like just full of himself and anger and energy like was chasing my brother and
just beating the crap out of them and ended up in the living room at my mom's feet as she's smoking her cigarette and watching her soap opera and drinking her diet pop and and she doesn't do anything and I had this I I literally like opened up a tab and said can domestic violence be between siblings because I thought it you know you think of intimate
Kristi McVee (37:14)
Yes it can.
Diane Tarantini (37:17)
partner violence. You think of the husband and wife, the boyfriend and girlfriend, the mom and stepdad. And of course, got the, it absolutely, it's in the domestic situation. It can be, it can be siblings. It didn't occur to me in another thing. ⁓ my gosh. I was like, if my parents didn't stop the violence, that's neglect.
Kristi McVee (37:18)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it didn't occur to you till then, did it?
It is. So many issues there. And why? Why didn't your parents do anything?
Diane Tarantini (37:50)
And it's like, we're like middle-class America.
My dad had three degrees, like one from Harvard, a PhD in psychology. And that's a myth that needs to be busted right there, that this kind of stuff only happens in poor families or uneducated.
Kristi McVee (38:06)
I know, a low socioeconomic or
uneducated. know. And I actually, so two things to all of that. I actually have been quoted as saying, generally, the worst people to deal with these situations are teachers and educators. because that, think they have, like, they literally, they either, they just check out. I think your parents checked out. You.
Diane Tarantini (38:32)
Yeah. yeah.
well, yeah. So my mom had bipolar disorder and she was like, yeah, she did a couple stints in the hospital. And then later when my dad passed, it was me that was admitting her to the psych ward. And then my dad was, I loved him so much, had him on a pedestal, but he was emotionally unavailable. He worked, ate dinner, and then went down in the basement and did his hobby.
Kristi McVee (38:58)
Yeah. Well, huh.
Diane Tarantini (39:00)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (39:00)
Yeah,
emotionally unavailable was is and I mean, sadly, because there's so much trauma around this, we're seeing another generation of emotionally unavailable parents now because we've got devices and look, I don't want to get into the whole device thing, but we now we can now check out with a phone. Our parents checked out with drugs, alcohol and drinking and, you know, and and not like don't don't ⁓ the words I used to hear was don't annoy your father.
Diane Tarantini (39:14)
Yes.
⁓ yeah!
Kristi McVee (39:32)
Don't go and annoy your father. Like there was no, you know, and not and I love my dad to pieces. He's he's a beautiful human. I'm sure you, you know, like my dad's on a pedestal as well. But he was emotionally checked out. So was my mom. So was my stepmom. So was like all of the adults around us were checked out and they checked out through substance abuse or through hobbies or through soap operas or watching the news around the dinner table instead of turning it off, you know, and like they just didn't connect with their
Diane Tarantini (39:42)
yeah.
Yeah. Yep.
Kristi McVee (40:02)
kids. And now we've got a different generation who are doing a similar thing. Some of us are working really hard to break that cycle but we've got a whole other generation of parents who is checking out through another reason and that's because we we don't talk about trauma enough and your dad should have known better.
Diane Tarantini (40:03)
Yes.
So
yeah, I tell people that like his PhD was in psychometrics, which is psychological testing. he like, he wasn't steeped in therapy and counseling. He was like more on the research side. Huh? You would think. Yeah. Yeah, it is ironic. Yeah, yes, it did.
Kristi McVee (40:31)
Okay. Yeah, but he would have done some of that. He would have done some of that in one of those degrees.
Diane Tarantini (40:45)
It's occurred to me a lot of times that it's quite ironic that my dad was a psychology professor and we were so incredibly dysfunctional as a family.
Kristi McVee (40:45)
I just don't think...
⁓ but I've had, ⁓ I've spoken to survivors whose parents were ⁓ pastors and they were heads of churches and they were, and both parents, like mother and father were like, in the Anglican church and their both parents were completely abusing them in the background, like father and daughter.
siblings were abusing and you know and then in in the community they were this pious very high up put on a pedestal people and and and they were like and again they were like googling is this abuse and it wasn't until they asked me i was like you know you do you realize that that is like psychological abuse this is this this is that and you know and but yeah they were they it was because that they were on this pedestal and everyone believed that they were and this is why
Diane Tarantini (41:22)
yes.
Kristi McVee (41:44)
It's a problem when we put people on pedestals, right? It's a problem when we think that the police, teachers, all of these people who are in positions of power and authority are actually, ⁓ you know, that we shouldn't question them. Because everyone, in my experience, anyone can be a child sex offender. Anyone can be. It's not everyone, but it can be anyone. And it doesn't matter what job they're in.
Diane Tarantini (41:58)
Yes.
Yes, exactly. ⁓ I saw a, I actually organized ⁓ a child safety summit here in my own town with a couple of other child safety professionals and one of our speakers, ⁓ his topic was, ⁓ When the Abuser Carries a Bible and it was one of the most brilliant presentations I've ever seen ⁓ because he just said,
Kristi McVee (42:38)
Wow, that's giving
me chills because...
Diane Tarantini (42:40)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (42:41)
We're not as,
Diane Tarantini (42:42)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (42:42)
Australians aren't as, like religion isn't a massive ⁓ thing in Australia because you know, we do have obviously religious, ⁓ you know, sections and stuff like that, but we're just not as religious in Australia. So, but it's the same with like, ⁓ you know, police. Like I get a lot of, cause I'm ex-police and ex-detective, I get like, you know, police are pigs, police do it, you know, they're the biggest pedophiles. And I'm like, well, actually like they're no more.
Diane Tarantini (42:47)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (43:11)
than any other section of the community. Like they're everywhere. They're in every job, every place, everywhere.
Diane Tarantini (43:19)
Yeah,
and especially places they can have contact with kids.
Kristi McVee (43:25)
Exactly. Yeah. So Diane, I'd love to hear more about, know, so I know that a lot of survivors, you've obviously done the whole part. You said, I knew when I was nine years old that I would write a book and I would need therapy. Now, that is an intro that I've never like heard before. So that was pretty cool. I guess what I wanted to ask is when did you do you started therapy when you became a parent? Is that right?
Diane Tarantini (43:52)
⁓ On my third child,
let's see. So after second little girl was born and I was yelling a lot, I went in for the antidepressant. And then we had our third child and I went off the antidepressants because I didn't want to have any pharmaceuticals in my body when I was ⁓ pregnant. And then, and I thought maybe it won't come back. ⁓ my doctor had...
called it moderate depression. It wasn't clinical, thank goodness. yeah, I started therapy when our son was two months old. it was anger. I tell people, I believe anger is one of the main things you can look for.
Kristi McVee (44:26)
It was situational.
Diane Tarantini (44:47)
because I just feel that you have so much rage because you had no control over your circumstance. And that's, I wanted to control like my children. ⁓ It was just like displaced control. And so I didn't, I didn't want my kid, I called myself mean mommy and I didn't want, I didn't want my kids to look back on their childhood and call me mean mommy.
And so that's why I disclosed to the doctor and he wrote me that day, he wrote me my prescription for my antidepressant and then he used the same prescription pad and just kept tearing off sheets and writing on the back, a psychologist, a psychotherapist, a psychiatrist, a clinic, a counseling practice and he goes just
Kristi McVee (45:45)
Do one of them, any of them.
Diane Tarantini (45:46)
⁓ Just go through them until you find the right fit. And thankfully, for me, the first one was the right fit. And it was a ⁓ counseling practice that specialized in PTSD.
Kristi McVee (46:01)
Wow. Yeah, because you would have had PTSD and I'm wondering if the so I mentioned this in like other podcasts and I talk about this.
Diane Tarantini (46:03)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (46:11)
Sometimes parenting is the trigger that so you might have suppressed so a lot of people suppress their abuse from childhood and when they become a parent, it's almost like it slaps you in the face again and and you're reliving things because your child is like if you see you in your child, right and you don't want that to happen to your child so then all of a sudden all of these memories start coming up and and a lot of it we don't talk about this enough because then all of a sudden you've got repressed rage and rage coming out and you
you're not coping with your kids. And we've got parents who are struggling with, or mothers who are struggling with postnatal depression and all of these things. So, you know, and then we diagnosed them with postnatal depression, but maybe there was something else there. I remember because I had like abandonment from my mom when she left when I was seven, I had this massive abandonment issue, like trauma and wound and...
Diane Tarantini (46:56)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (47:09)
And when my daughter was, when I was pregnant with my daughter, I was having nightmares, like all through my pregnancy about just leaving my daughter places. Or I didn't know I was having a daughter. I just knew I was having a baby and we didn't know until she was born. And I was leaving my baby in like post offices and shopping centers. And I would drive off and leave her. And then I would come back and the baby would be missing and I'd be searching and I'd be crying. I'd be sobbing in my sleep. And I think that was just because I'd never really actually dealt
with the abandonment trauma that I had from that instance. then, but that was, and I had other traumas over the years. And when my daughter hit those ages, these were all different traumas. They just came up again. And I was like, my gosh, this is crazy. So yeah, it's really important, I think, for people to realize that once you have kids, it changes the game for you.
Diane Tarantini (47:44)
Yes!
I'm going to read something from
my book. Can I do that? Because this is exactly what you're talking about. And it wasn't in the original book in my developmental or manuscript. My developmental editor asked me to put it to to put it in because this was my exactly what you're talking about. My inciting incident as a young mother. And it's the prologue. I remember
Kristi McVee (48:08)
Yeah, I can't wait.
Yeah, go.
Diane Tarantini (48:35)
In the first home my husband Chad and I owned. The year was 1993. Our firstborn child would soon turn two. I just lifted her from the bath and patted her dry. Still in her hooded towel, she flitted around the bathroom on her tiptoes, performing what we called her the doot doot dance. Named after the silly song she sang during this ritual. All damp, velvety innocence.
Kristi McVee (48:58)
you
Diane Tarantini (49:05)
in the steam filled bathroom. My stare became a squint. Then a grimace as a thought came suddenly to mind. A knowing. This is what I looked like when it began. My body boasted no curves, no breasts, no hips, no hair anywhere other than on my head. I was only a little girl when my older brother
began sneaking into my room at night.
So that was um that was 93 and I squashed it until the year 2000 is when I disclosed to my doctor. So even though you have that mama bear moment it takes so much courage to ask for help and I knew like part of the reason like there were times
I just said, it's gonna be too scary, I can't do it right now. It's gonna be expensive, I can't do it right now. I don't have the time and energy. I mean, you know, ⁓ like you've done counseling and all that stuff, Yeah, you know, it takes a time commitment and ⁓ it is hard and it's expensive. And I remember not wanting to be hypnotized
Kristi McVee (50:15)
for my whole life.
It takes bravery as well.
Diane Tarantini (50:30)
because I was afraid that I'd recover stuff I didn't know. And I never was. ⁓ I had EMDR when it very first started, but I didn't want, I didn't want, I felt like my brain, there's that ⁓ Jack Nicholson and Tom Cruise movie where Jack Nicholson says, you can't handle the truth. And I felt like my brain is only giving me what I can handle. So I didn't want.
Kristi McVee (50:40)
I think...
Yeah.
Yeah.
Diane Tarantini (50:58)
I didn't want to uncover more. And I don't think that, I think my therapy experience was still valid, even if I didn't go digging too deep.
Kristi McVee (51:09)
And you never know, like I have people come to me and they're like, I think I had something happen when I was a little, and I talk about, and you might know more, you might be able to add something to this. I have parents come to me and they've got children who are under three and something's happened and they're like, my God. And I'm like, well, in actual fact, if you don't mention it again, they won't remember it, but their body might.
Because under three, our brain is pruning so quickly. ⁓ They're pruning all of the neurons and all of the nerve. It's happening so fast. You're developmenting so fast. So this is why in most cases, and I only learned this after I left the police, but during the police, we didn't interview children under the age of three. Because it could have happened one day and they won't remember it the next.
And but we've got people, we've got people who are saying, I think something happened. I have like this distant memory, but I can't like, you know, when you've got a memory and you can't grab it and you can't pull it out, you just know something's happened. And so, you know, sadly, a lot of parents are like, what do I do ⁓ about the fact that, you know, and I'm like, well, first of all, ⁓ you know, they will probably forget as long as you don't keep reminding them.
Diane Tarantini (52:12)
Yes. Yes.
Kristi McVee (52:27)
and you give them love, support and everything that they need. But mind you, it might come out in behaviour, it might come out in other ways. So it's just so hard for... ⁓
And yeah, it's just and that's only when it's a one off incident or something like, know, a childcare center or stuff. But it is really hard because the body always remembers. I'm sure like for you, the body keeps the score. ⁓ Everything that happens in our lifetime, if we don't hear. And when I left the police with PTSD, ⁓ my doctor wanted to medicate me with, you know, anxiety and depression and everything like that. And I just kept saying, I need to feel it to heal it.
Diane Tarantini (52:44)
Yes.
Body keeps the score.
Kristi McVee (53:10)
I was so I was so you know there was so many bad days so many bad days And I just kept saying I need to go I need to get through this to get to the other side like I just I don't know what kept me going because I was like ready to give up at some stages I thought the world's better off without me all of those things that you feel when you're going through like severe trauma and severe depression etc But I think that's the thing that we need whatever you need to do to get through but at the end of the day you still have to
did go through it.
Diane Tarantini (53:41)
Yep. Yep.
Kristi McVee (53:42)
You can't
just bypass it, you can't go around it, you can't go under it or over it, you have to go through it. so however you need to do it, like going to therapy, I've been going to therapy my whole adult life. And on and off like you, sometimes you can't afford it, sometimes you have to have a big break between it, but it's the best thing that I've ever done because it's got me to where I am today, where I can talk about stuff and I can be here for other people and I can be here for my own family.
Diane Tarantini (54:10)
I've heard so many people talking about like getting these miracle breakthroughs with EMDR and I like didn't have that but it was at the very very beginning. She would do the finger wag and she would videotape me and she told me to watch it when I never did I just kept the videotapes in a box in the basement I never watched them. ⁓ But now that people are saying like what a great experience they're having with EMDR I've thought
I want to go back to do a check-in. Yeah. that's what I've heard. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (54:40)
Maybe you should go back. Yeah, they have this like little device now. I know, and
so you were right at the cutting edge of EMDR therapy. Just for anyone listening who hasn't heard, because a lot of people still don't know about EMDR therapy, what is it about? Like, what is it meant to do?
Diane Tarantini (54:51)
I was. Yeah.
Okay, as I understand it, as it was explained to me, when you experience trauma, it resides in one part of your brain. And in order to get to the other side, you have to process it. And like my lady would do her finger and you'd focus on it. And some people I think have used a metronome, a swinging a baseball bat for little athletic boys and girls.
And then you're supposed to recall one of the incidents and describe it. And that is helping the trauma cross to the other side of the brain, like to digest it. It's not like this, am I describing it right? Is that what EMDR is? It just helps the trauma go from left to right.
Kristi McVee (55:46)
Yeah.
Well, it's I.
It's to do with
the fact that, and my daughters had it actually, because she had a trauma that happened from seeing our cat get run over. And she was only five at the time and it was right in front of us. And then every time she saw like a animal on the side of the road that had been hit by a car or anything, she was like having this, and she was getting closer to getting her license. And I was really worried that she would like freak
Diane Tarantini (56:21)
wow.
Kristi McVee (56:23)
out if something run out in front of her so we went and saw she's been seeing a therapist since she was a young kid as well for just because sometimes we need someone to talk to that isn't our family and doesn't give us their opinions and anyway so she went to this ⁓ and did this EMDR and ⁓
and honestly it literally it switches off the emotion so basically you it it because there's emotion attached to the memory and so what it does is it helps the body release the emotion attached to the memory so the memory is there without the emotion attached to it and i'm not sure it's got to do with the eye movement and that's why you are following the finger but now they use like little hair little things in your hands and it it's basically sending a electric
current through your body from one side to the other and it uses and that's you recall the memory and it basically switches off the connection like it undoes the neuron that connects the memory to the emotion.
something like that. I might be doing a disservice if I have, please put it in the comments, maybe go Google it. But it is very, for some people, it's a one or off incident or if it's a, you, it doesn't work with complex trauma. So it doesn't work with massive amounts of trauma. If you have one, if you can pinpoint one incident, for instance, I've got complex trauma from vicarious trauma, lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of memories.
Diane Tarantini (57:20)
I'm
you're...
⁓ wow.
Kristi McVee (57:50)
it will work for my daughter who had that one memory that was creating trauma. If you have one particular memory that is the one that you get really emotional over, it'll work. I would just recommend trying it. It's not something you shouldn't try.
Diane Tarantini (57:53)
wow.
Yeah, yeah, I definitely
Kristi McVee (58:06)
Because I think for
Diane Tarantini (58:06)
want to do it now.
Kristi McVee (58:07)
survivors, the most frustrating part of all of this stuff is the hold it has over you, right? It can stop you in your tracks from doing and living your best life. if you could get rid of all of the emotion behind it, then maybe you could get on with doing what you want to do.
Diane Tarantini (58:28)
Yeah,
so it's interesting, my brother who was also abused has never had therapy. And ⁓ we're no contact at the moment because he went back into relationship with our brother who caused harm. So. ⁓
He had the difficult childhood and then he had a terrible marriage. I asked, I recommended it to him so many times and my husband did as well, ⁓ but he never did it. it's just clear to me just through that one example how harm,
what a bad idea it is to not get help for an emotional trauma.
Kristi McVee (59:17)
you
I would say the reason why he, first of all, men can be really hopeless, sorry guys, you can be really bad at getting help because you think that you need to be the tough, the provider, all of that. Second of all, it's probably why he has contact with his abuser because the fact is that he doesn't believe he deserves better. He's got emotional, psychological and physical sexual abuse. He's got the trifecta plus. So he has all of this
Diane Tarantini (59:46)
Yep. Yep.
Kristi McVee (59:51)
⁓ you know all of this connection to his to that you know like he's still got he hasn't been able to pull apart and see that he wasn't the you know he's probably got some form of guilt around it like there'll be so many things going on and that's the that's the hard part about sexual abuse no matter who is your abuser it's sometimes and I don't say this ⁓ with like without considering sometimes it's easier to can disconnect from your abuser if they're a stranger because that's the book that's a boogeyman you know like
Diane Tarantini (1:00:17)
Yes! Yes!
Kristi McVee (1:00:20)
That's the boogeyman. They're not someone who lives in your home, who you love. Because one of the things that I had to reconcile when I was interviewing children was, kids still love their abusers, especially if they're family. And it doesn't make sense to them. Why are they still hurting me? I love them. Why do they hurt me?
Diane Tarantini (1:00:34)
Yes. Yeah. Yep.
Yeah, yeah that's gosh someone ⁓ there was someone on social media who said like rough implied that sibling or child sexual abuse at the hands of a cousin is similar to child to sibling sexual abuse and I had someone explain to me it when it's your cousin your cousin goes home to their house
and their parents and as a family and a survivor you can hate them and despise them in a way that you can't when it's your own sibling when it's your own child that just blew up your family and yeah the complex like the sitting across the dinner table from your abuser
Kristi McVee (1:01:20)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Diane Tarantini (1:01:41)
⁓ for a solid decade, it's just, ⁓ I can't remember when I heard about the concept of complex trauma. Like, do you have a good definition of that, Kristi?
Kristi McVee (1:01:52)
No,
I mean complex trauma to me, know, from just the term is basically it's not just one incident, it's multiple over time, it's not easily definable, you know, because, you know, lot of this is the thing, right? When it's generally, when it can be years that you're and in your case years that you're being abused by your person, by your perpetrator.
Diane Tarantini (1:02:02)
Yes. Yes.
Kristi McVee (1:02:20)
It can be over a massive amount of time. That in itself is a trauma. And not to mention every incident that it happened that you can remember. And sometimes when I was interviewing children and survivors, they blur together. You don't remember the incidents.
Diane Tarantini (1:02:31)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. When you
were sitting here thinking, saying you've got to think of one incident and I'm like, but I can't. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (1:02:44)
They blur together. It just becomes your memory.
And it's your brain's way of protecting you. If you had to remember the hundreds of times you're abused, then your brain would probably shut down and you wouldn't be functioning. So in order for you to be functioning, has to like protect your, you disassociate when it's happening, your brain stops, you know,
Diane Tarantini (1:02:59)
Right.
Kristi McVee (1:03:09)
memorizing the memories, like it just basically is protecting you and that's what your brain does and it's there to protect you and you know, it's really hard. I know I take my hat off to you to be a survivor in this space and to do this work because a lot of people are struggling to even be able to verbalize what's happened to them. The fact that you can so openly and honestly and clearly talk about it. So I guess my last question for you is what other than the therapy
Diane Tarantini (1:03:29)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (1:03:39)
Well, what was like writing? You've written a kids book. Tell us about the kids book and then maybe give us some little tips for parents because I think if anyone's a parent listening and they're worried, know, people aren't generally worried about their children harming each other, but you know, maybe give some tips around, know, first of all, how to have a conversation with your kids about it.
Diane Tarantini (1:04:05)
Yeah, I've
got lots of ideas. This is the children's book, The Brave Knight. It's probably backwards maybe to y'all. And the...
Kristi McVee (1:04:13)
No, it's great. ⁓
Diane Tarantini (1:04:18)
The person who got me started in body safety education, like I literally cold called him on Facebook. I said, knew enough about his nonprofit to know that they always use a survivor in body safety assemblies because children will often disclose to someone with similar lived experience. So I said, I love kids, which could be creepy to say in this industry. I love kids. I have three grown ones.
Kristi McVee (1:04:39)
Ron.
Hahaha
Diane Tarantini (1:04:48)
I'm
comfortable speaking in front of large groups of adults or kids and I'm a survivor. So I started shadowing their team. And about six months in he said, and I have an MFA in creative nonfiction. Nonfiction is my jam. You don't have to plot. But he said, could you in a nonthreatening way teach kids what grooming is? The process.
sexual predator will use to gain the trust of a potential victim and sometimes their family and I Said I'll think about it and then in less than a week. I woke up with the idea fully formed in my mind It's ⁓ it's a fairy tale. It's a young girl and a dragon who are best friends until they're not and so the dragon Does classic grooming behavior
Isolates, gives gifts, has the child take physical risk or break the parents rules.
has a turn at one point when they are not so nice anymore. But anyway, the book is great. It was a group in my state bought 7,000 copies of the book to give to every foster child because foster kids are more at risk than children in traditional homes. So that was really cool to write. I thought the memoir would be the first book. But then...
Kristi McVee (1:06:09)
Yes.
You just
had to... kids needed it more than your memoir needed to be birthed I guess.
Diane Tarantini (1:06:26)
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
so it's had a really good people love it. ⁓ And then I wrote the memoir. The thing about the memoir and a lot of people that I know who have written memoirs. It often takes over 10 years.
Kristi McVee (1:06:43)
Mmm, it does. Yeah, a long time.
Diane Tarantini (1:06:45)
to keep all the notes and to organize the notes and to learn how to write. So it took 10 years to get the memoir out. But I was speaking with, there's a fantastic organization called Five Waves. They're the premier organization for sibling sexual abuse and trauma. Whether you're a survivor or going through it right now or a person who caused harm or parents or professionals working in child safety.
⁓ or law enforcement, they've got lots of resources. And ⁓ we were just having a conversation recently. They love that I'm a body safety educator and that I'm talking about this. ⁓ And I threw out two questions that I recommend parents ask kids on a regular basis. And they're like, those are really good, really good questions. So the first one is,
Is there anything in your life that you need a grown-up's help with?
Kristi McVee (1:07:44)
is a good one. ⁓
Diane Tarantini (1:07:46)
So whether they're trying to pick their college or they want to learn to ride a bike or there's a bully on the school bus or someone's grabbing their butt in the halls at school, like I need a grown-up's help with that. So that's a thing. And that question is gonna, it's gonna make you closer to your child because you're gonna get a glimpse into their world of what their struggles are.
And then the other thing, the other question that I also want parents to ask, and you could alternate these like every other week or once a month, like you don't have to be heavy handed about it. We want kids to be aware, not scared. But is there anyone in your life who's making you nervous, anxious, or afraid?
So that gets at the anyone. every time I stand in front of a group of kids and get ready to talk, I say, I think to myself, if I'd had a body safety assembly, if I'd known, if I'd had somebody ask me, is everything okay? Do you feel safe? A lot of doctors and nurses are starting to ask that just with regular checkups.
Are you safe in your home? Are you safe in your life? But to ask kids if they need a grand-up's help with anything and to ask them if anyone. But you have to keep asking. My one friend who's a prosecuting attorney tells a story about a teacher who reported to Child Protective Services 19 times, Kristi.
Kristi McVee (1:09:02)
Yeah.
Well, it's not a one-off conversation.
surprised.
Diane Tarantini (1:09:27)
And
CPS never investigated because it sounded outlandish. And then the last time they actually sent somebody out to the house. And what do know? The kid was not lying.
Kristi McVee (1:09:41)
Kids don't lie about, you know, like...
Diane Tarantini (1:09:44)
So that's why you keep
asking. You must be persistent. Even if they roll their eyes, even if you feel like, gosh, I'm getting on their nerves. It's easier to prevent a mess than clean it up.
Kristi McVee (1:09:47)
I
yes preach
Diane Tarantini (1:10:04)
because healing
is a lifelong journey. So just keep them safe so they don't have to heal from this. those are the two, just constant conversation. The woman, Dr. Debbie, that I recommended her book, Yes, Your Kid, she said, have your conversations when you're driving to piano lessons or soccer. When kids in the back and you're in the front, you don't have eye contact, so it's not super awkward.
And you just say, I was listening to the radio and I heard this really crazy story about sextortion. Have you ever heard of this? I know you've been asking questions about dating. Are there any questions you want to know about relationships or physical intimacy? If I don't know the answer, I'll get it for you. But you've got to make your child and the kids you care about believe that you're safe.
Kristi McVee (1:10:38)
Yeah. Yeah. Know of anyone?
Yeah.
I think also to add to that, you need to have those conversations early on so that it's normal. You don't just start talking to a teenager when they're a teenager and they're like, they're not turning to you for advice, they're turning to their friends or the internet. know, have those conversations when they're little people, when they're, you know, talk all the time with them. You know, what's happening with this friend? Oh, what happened with that? You know, make it so that they turn to you for the conversation and they can unwind and debrief with you.
Diane Tarantini (1:11:05)
yeah. Yeah.
my goodness. Yep.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (1:11:30)
One of the best times that I loved ⁓ talking to my daughter was when we were in bed at night having a cuddle and reading the book and we'd talk about different stuff. mean sometimes when she was young it was really early on and then I got mum time afterwards but...
as a teenager, sometimes this happens at 11 o'clock at night and I'm like, like halfway rolling your eyes going, oh, why'd you wait till now? But this is when they feel safe to talk and, they need to talk. I 150 % agree with you. And I'm so glad that other people are saying in the car, that's when I had all my big conversations. And actually, I had my daughter's having some like, she's final year of school. So you know, it's a big year. And I said to her, can we talk about this? And she
Diane Tarantini (1:11:51)
Yes, take it when you can get it. Yep.
Kristi McVee (1:12:18)
said, well, can we go for a drive? And so she wanted to go for it. She goes, I like having my big conversations in the car.
Diane Tarantini (1:12:25)
That's
amazing. She's telling you what she wants. That's a beautiful thing. But that's really interesting. I wonder if it was the side by side is easier relationally.
Kristi McVee (1:12:28)
Yeah.
It's calm and peaceful. Yeah, I think it's just calming
and peaceful. Like we do a lot of talking in bed, but we never sit across from each other to talk about big things. Never. Always side by side.
Diane Tarantini (1:12:44)
That's fascinating. And body safety books. Yeah. There's so
many great body safety books. On the topic of pornography. Are you familiar with good pictures, bad pictures? Yeah. I was on a panel with Kristin Jensen last summer. It's the, it's the, and there's a book for teens and a book for little people. It's the best. It's the best book.
Kristi McVee (1:12:55)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
the go-to for this.
Also we just
need to also be mindful when we're having conversations with our kids, good and bad sometimes like can make kids feel ashamed so it can be safe and unsafe like we can use that language as well I think that's really important.
Diane Tarantini (1:13:18)
Yes. yeah. Yeah. This was
for pictures, but you're right. We've stopped saying good touch, bad touch. It's safe touch, unsafe touch. Yes. Because it can feel good sometimes.
Kristi McVee (1:13:26)
Yeah, and...
Exactly and it's confusing. mean look there's as long as we're the tour, you know And this is the other thing I would I'd say you would agree with it's not about what you're saying It's about how you say it if you come you're peaceful if you're stumbling over your words saying my gosh Mommy doesn't actually know how to say this because no one talked to her about that, but I'm trying It's really important. Maybe you can help me out here. You know, like just make just be human about it We don't have to be perfect. We just have to try
Diane Tarantini (1:13:42)
Yes!
Yes.
Yeah, even like when you're receiving a disclosure and you know this, you can't have the shock and awe face on. You kind of have to just like receive it.
Kristi McVee (1:14:02)
No, no you cannot.
Diane Tarantini (1:14:06)
and be that calm presence. You can't say I'm going to kill them because they might love the person who's harming them. Yeah, you just have to. You're right. So the same same demeanor when you're receiving a disclosure or when you're talking about big topics is just open and honest and measured. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (1:14:13)
Abuse them.
Yeah, as best you can be. And if you
make a mistake, you make a mistake and you just go back and say, you know what, I don't like how I, and I've done this so many times, gosh, I've like.
Mum break like mama bears like blown up about you know the bullying or something and and then I've gone actually that's not helpful gone back and said look I didn't actually cope with that very well I didn't react very well I'm so sorry like you were trying to tell me something important and I made like I didn't listen properly you know or or whatever and I don't think that's the thing like we're humans we're learning my daughter get oh yeah
Diane Tarantini (1:14:59)
I think apologizing to your kids is super important. I did that
to all my grown kids. was like, so I was going through therapy and I had a short fuse and I didn't mother you as well as I should. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (1:15:06)
What?
I said the same thing today.
I said, my daughter was sitting here and I said, you one day you're probably gonna look back and go, you left me with trauma. And I said, and I said, and you know, and I'm sorry. And whenever you wanna like come to me and talk to me about it, if it ever comes up for you, I'm here to listen, you know? And I'm sorry, like sometimes I don't think I parented you very well. It actually was a conversation I had before we jumped on. So.
And she's only 17, but I think the thing is, that why it's important is because, you know, we do the best we can in the moment, but we're not always going to do the best we that they need. We think we're doing the best, but they might not think we're doing the best. And it's not about us.
Diane Tarantini (1:15:59)
my goodness, ⁓ there's this line in my book. Do you know, and I don't know if I'm going to say his name right, Gabor Mate? Okay. I watched a video of him. I can't remember it was before or after I wrote the book.
Kristi McVee (1:16:08)
Yes, perfect.
Diane Tarantini (1:16:14)
Because my mom's token phrase was, I did the best I could. And Gabor Mate says, they may have done the best they could, but that doesn't mean it was enough for the child.
And I said, there you are. And as I reflected and wrote and had more understanding and empathy for my mother, I realized that she probably did the best she could. It just wasn't enough. ⁓ my goodness.
Kristi McVee (1:16:50)
enough.
That's a whole
nother podcast, I think. ⁓
Diane Tarantini (1:16:59)
Yes. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (1:17:02)
Well, I'm sure that listeners will want to find you and learn more about you and grab your books. So tell us how we can find your books.
Diane Tarantini (1:17:10)
Okay, the brave night and everyone was silent are both on Amazon. You can get signed. gosh, you guys are in Australia. not going to, I, someone ordered a book from Australia and shipping was like $30. And so I refunded her, her money, cause it was only $5 shipping on my website and said, I love that you wanted to order it from me, but can you please order it from Amazon? Because yeah.
Kristi McVee (1:17:21)
No, but if...
goodness.
Yeah, it's too much.
Diane Tarantini (1:17:38)
It'll
take you too long to get it. So diannterrantini.com. have a ton of blog posts about child safety, exit strategies, personal safety plans, safe adults, sibling sexual abuse, children in pornography blog posts. So diannterrantini.com. ⁓ Yeah. Let me show you notes. I'm on Instagram.
Kristi McVee (1:17:44)
Yeah.
Perfect.
yes i'll put them in the i'll put them in the show notes but
i can't wait
Diane Tarantini (1:18:04)
as writing
Diane T., which I know isn't very catchy, but it's what I am. And I do a lot of reels and a lot of social media posts and carousels on risk factors of child sexual abuse and sibling sexual abuse and how to tell if your child might be going through something hard. But yeah, I think I do my best child safety work on Instagram and my website.
Kristi McVee (1:18:13)
Yeah.
Amazing.
Yeah, yeah, so that's the best
place. Yeah, I'm the same. I do my best child safety work on Instagram as well. But, you know, I just, first of all, what an amazing conversation we've had. It's... I love you! ⁓
Diane Tarantini (1:18:40)
my gosh, I love you so much. want to be, yeah, I want to be able to have coffee
with you once a month.
Kristi McVee (1:18:46)
Well, we'll definitely we'll talk about that. But yeah, we'll ⁓ we will make sure that everything's in the show notes and people can find you. And I think Diane, I would love to keep in touch and we can talk about these topics again, ⁓ or more about these topics. Because I think from your experience, plus your lived experience, as well as your work experience, you've got so much to share with parents and with people. And it's really important. And this is a topic that
It's a hard topic to talk about sibling sexual abuse, but it's a very important topic. It's not the only topic you talk about, but you know what I mean. I would highly recommend anyone listening to go and get your memoir, especially that first bit. I just about burst into tears. I've heard many, many stories like that, but the way you just wrote that and just like expressed what you left me in like goosebumps.
Diane Tarantini (1:19:20)
Right. Yeah.
I'm working on
the audio book and my sound engineer has stepped away for a little while. need to get back in touch with him to see. Yeah, I think it's going to be great. editing.
Kristi McVee (1:19:43)
Are you? It's so much fun!
Recording, I
recorded my book and it was so much fun. I, when I recorded my book, I did it in a three day period, like 16 hours in the recording studio. So when, for anyone who hasn't listened to my book and goes and reads it, gets it in audio, from the first day to the very end of the book, you can tell my voice changes over the period if you, it was so, I was just.
Diane Tarantini (1:20:16)
yeah, yeah, yeah. my gosh. Yes.
Kristi McVee (1:20:20)
I laugh about it now. I should have probably like did it in more weeks. know, better leave, you know, given my voice time.
Diane Tarantini (1:20:27)
I think, yeah, I did it in a,
like, yeah, I went over to a friend's house who has a sound studio and I know from day to day my voice changed and your reading rhythm changes, just people have to.
Kristi McVee (1:20:35)
Yeah.
Yeah, I got faster.
So if you listen to it, if you just listen to the first bit and the last bit, you'll laugh because it sounds like I've became a chipmunk. No, not quite, but.
Diane Tarantini (1:20:48)
my
goodness.
Kristi McVee (1:20:50)
⁓
Well thank you so much Diane. Thanks for staying up so late over there ⁓ and doing this with me and having this conversation. will keep in touch and please, anyone listening, please go and grab Diane's books from Amazon because I think they would be worthwhile to read. I'm gonna, I apologise Diane, I don't have a copy of your book but I will be getting a copy for sure for my own library. So thank you.
Diane Tarantini (1:20:59)
Yes!
But yeah, that would
be great. think it's helpful. I wrote my book and then I read Brad Watts book on sibling sexual abuse. I'm like, they're like companion texts. Like what he wrote confirmed my life experience in our family environment. It's really interesting. If we do show notes, I'll recommend that book. I'll release that. Okay, thank you.
Kristi McVee (1:21:38)
Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you so much.
Kristi McVee (1:21:43)
Thank you for listening to this episode. Education empowers children, strengthens parents and most importantly, prevents abuse. That's why I do this work and that's why you're here. So truly thank you. If you'd like more support or resources, follow me on social media under Kristi McVee or cape-au where you'll find all the links in the show notes. You can also grab a copy of my book, Operation KidSafe, a detective's guide to child abuse prevention at www.cape-au.com
where you'll find further resources and self-paced courses to help you in this journey of protecting your kids. If you found this episode valuable, please take a moment to leave a review or share it with someone important. Your support helps more parents and caregivers discover this important information and take action to keep kids safe. Check the show notes for extra links and support. And most importantly, thank you for showing up and taking action to protect your kids. See you next time.
