Chey (00:02)
It doesn't matter how many laws or legislations we have in place. β A good example is the CCS. So it's been in legislation
Kristi McVee (00:02)
Yeah.
Yes.
Chey (00:12)
for quite a few years already that services can have their childcare subsidy removed if they're working with children checks and not up to date. But I've been in services and I've seen employees where they're working with children checks have not been verified. So when we talk about legislation, there are already things in place. Why is it not working?
Kristi McVee (00:20)
Ha
Kristi McVee - Intro (00:32)
Welcome to Conversations with Kristi I'm Kristi McVee a former WA police officer, specialist child interviewer and child abuse detective. For years I worked on the front lines investigating child sexual abuse, where I saw the risks, the patterns and most importantly, the ways that we can protect our kids. Now I'm here to share that knowledge with you. This podcast is all about real conversations, giving parents, carers and educators the tools to keep their kids safe, both in person and online.
Through survivor stories, expert insights and practical advice, we'll navigate these tough topics together so you feel informed, confident and empowered. Because when we know better, we can do better and our kids deserve nothing less. CONTENT WARNING Some topics and conversations can be triggering for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised as your mental health is important. Please refer to my website and the show notes for available support services.
Kristi McVee (01:24)
Hello and welcome back to Conversations with Kristi and today's a very, very special episode. I am with Cheyenne Carter or Chey Is that how you say your name usually Chey? Is that Chey or Chey? I thought it.
Chey (01:35)
Yeah. β People in New Zealand call
me Cheyenne, but it reminds me of my mother when I didn't clean my room, so I prefer Chey.
Kristi McVee (01:45)
Yeah, I thought so. You know, you don't shorten your name for a reason because otherwise you feel like you're being told off. But this is a very special episode in that after what's happened over obviously throughout Australia with so many concerns around early childhood education centers and safety, Chey and I decided that we wanted to jump on a podcast and have a conversation around what exactly
Chey (01:49)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (02:10)
has happened or how this happens and then what powers and what things parents can do to ensure that they feel safe and that their children are safe. I thought I would start with you Chey if you could just explain to listeners your experiences and and how you got to where you are now.
Chey (02:28)
Yeah, absolutely. So I've been in early childhood for well over 10 years. I started as a trainee, worked my way through the ranks. And so through that time, I've worked for various organizations, for-profit, non-for-profit community. And I've seen a very, I guess, vast difference in levels of quality and different things that happen. And after COVID, there just seemed to be a really rapid decline. Like things just got...
aggravatedly worse. And so, you know, when I was looking at all these services and looking at how educators just look drained and exhausted and you could see the stress was being transferred onto children in different ways. because I was going to more than one service, I kind of like thought to myself, you know, okay, I can complain about it, but
I can complain more if I'm doing something about it. So I kind of asked myself, what can I do? What abilities or skills do I have where I can help in this situation? And so that's when I started looking at technology and my social media and just educating the public on different elements of child safety. everything that I do with content is all about empowering the workforce so that they have the knowledge and the tools.
so that it translates into more safe environments for children. Because we know, you know, any parent would tell you how stressful it is with their child. So when you're in a room of 20 to 30 children and you don't have a break or proper breaks, you know, you don't have the right resources. All of those things add added pressure and added stress. And a stressful adult is not good for a child. So...
I think all the support the workforce can get will help β keep children safe and help educators be able to create those safe environments. So yeah, that's kind of what I've been working on this year.
Kristi McVee (04:25)
Yeah, so the first time I came across you was during that 7.30 report. And obviously you've turned your experiences and what you've seen into consulting for and to basically helping improve the standards for workers or for educators. Yeah.
Chey (04:30)
Mmm.
Yeah,
so with the consulting, I started off heavily in the for-profit β avenue, helping for-profit providers. And my, I guess, intention behind that was, you I was very good at making money when I was a manager. And so I thought to myself, if I can make these people more money, maybe they'll invest in the right areas. How naive of me. So.
Kristi McVee (05:04)
No.
Chey (05:05)
I learned a lot through those experiences and understood so many different lenses or different perspectives on the other side of the business. That honestly drove me more to just wanting to help the workforce because now I was hearing the voices from business owners. I thought, there's obviously a gap in value of staff development.
Kristi McVee (05:23)
you
Chey (05:30)
So how can I, what in my power can I do to support that development on a mass scale? And with the media and the Four Corners and 730, I think, you know, for a very long time, I was very afraid, very scared to speak up. You know, I've seen a lot in the services, a lot of wonderful things, but also a lot of really bad situations. And I think
Kristi McVee (05:31)
Mm.
Chey (05:54)
even as managers, we get put into this position where we're so afraid to say anything. And so doing that public media was like, okay, well, if I can do it, then anyone can do it. And so, yeah, I just wanted to be able to kind of show people that it's not as scary as it does feel. The greater cause is more important.
Kristi McVee (06:08)
and
Yeah.
Yeah, and I guess, you know, and I'll explain a little bit about what I, you know, my experiences and my background. From my perspective, if you if your whole business model is based around children, then child safety should be your number one priority. There is no business without children. And if children aren't safe, then there is no business. So it's it's kind of mind blowing to me. And I know that how it's happened, I can see how it's happened. And from my experiences, I can see how and I know how
you know, some of this situation in Victoria and in New South Wales and Queensland and all around Australia. Just because we only know about these recent β incidents doesn't mean it's not happening elsewhere. But I do want to remind parents that, you know, for the most part, most early childhood educators are doing their best. They're trying really hard. They're in a system that isn't supporting them. And I think most parents understand that. They can see that. You know, so
Chey (07:10)
Hmm.
Kristi McVee (07:13)
I think for the most part, most parents understand that they just don't want it to be at a risk, to, you know, their children to be the ones that are, you know, put at a risk because of it. So, yeah. OK, so a little bit about me for anyone who's listening and hasn't heard my story. I was a West Australian police officer for 10 years. I got into the police when my daughter was only two years old. And it's a crazy story of how I got there. Go back and have a listen to other episodes.
But when she was two, β I joined and some of the first cases that I went to as a general duties police officer, in particular one that's on the the front of my mind first week in was a child sexual abuse case. And I think that sort of might have set me up to become what I did become. So after just a year in the police, I became a specialist child interviewer. So I interviewed children who had been sexually abused and abused. was
You know, I was one of the only interviewers in my region at the time. So I was flown all over the Pilbara in Western Australia and I interviewed kids all over and then after four years I became a detective and then put my hand up to go into the child abuse squad where I was investigating historical child sexual abuse as well as β current child sexual abuse and towards the last part of my career for the last two years, I was interviewing children investigating cases, you know
Chey (08:24)
Wow.
Kristi McVee (08:33)
charging offenders and then also part of the team who managed child sex offenders when they were released from prison. in my 10 years, I did a large portion of child sexual abuse. I did work on other cases like murders and serious robberies and assaults and things like that. But most of my career was based around child sexual abuse and abuse. So I guess from my perspective, when I left or when I was leaving, I just kept thinking, why don't parents see what I see when I'm talking to kids and when I'm talking to families? And a lot of parents said to me,
Chey (08:39)
Yes
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (09:01)
I just wish I hadn't known what to watch out for if I hadn't known I would have been able to protect my kid. And it was those grooming behaviors, those things that we are now highlighting in the media at the moment about how someone can go into a center or into a place or even into a family and make people believe that they're a safe adult and that they are safe to leave this child with. And then they go on to abuse them. So I wrote a book about that.
Chey (09:03)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mm.
Kristi McVee (09:27)
called Operation Kid Safe and a detective's guide to child abuse prevention. And it was kind of like a, it was because I couldn't stop thinking about all the kids. tried to do another, I tried to become a personal trainer after I left the police, but I kept thinking about the children that I, I felt like I had let down my community and children by leaving the police. It wasn't by choice in the end. I actually left because I had PTSD and, but yeah.
Chey (09:46)
Mmm. Yeah.
I was going to say that must have been
really psychologically challenging to listen and hear every week.
Kristi McVee (09:56)
Pretty.
Yeah, it was really intense, especially because where I worked at the time, especially those last two years where I worked, I was expected to interview the children and investigate their cases. It should not have happened that way. And even though I spoke, I spoke up about it and said, look, this is not actually good for my mental health. They didn't didn't have anyone else to work on them. So they just were like, you just got to do what you got to do. They didn't listen to me and.
Chey (10:12)
Mm. Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (10:26)
It did affect my mental health and it did cause severe anxiety and PTSD. to be honest, think when I left the police and I felt like a failure, I absolutely did. And that was part of the mental illness that I was dealing with. looking back five years now, I've been out of the police for five years, written a book. now obviously advocating for better child safety, for identifying grooming, talking about this in public.
Chey (10:35)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (10:50)
Which
never in a million years did I think I would be doing what I'm doing. I'm sure it's the same for you, Chey. But, you know, it's just one of those things where you just, it sort of evolves. And here I am, you know, five years later and I'm on sunrise and I'm on the TV and I'm, and, you know, on radio and you're thinking, how did I get here? But it was because I knew that kids needed me to speak up for them. And, you know, that we don't listen to them enough and we don't give them enough.
Chey (10:55)
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (11:19)
We just don't give them enough space and time and attention to be able to feel safe so that they can disclose. there's a lot of, even in the police, there's a lot of holes in the system. So, yeah, so my experience with what we're dealing with is in that I would have been the person to come in and investigate. you know, combined with your experience, hopefully we'll be able to give parents some clues as to how this has happened and why this happens. And then...
Chey (11:29)
Hmm.
Kristi McVee (11:44)
how parents can keep their kids safe whilst in care.
Chey (11:48)
Absolutely. And so I guess I have a question for you in terms of like through all those cases, and I guess you might have been asked this a thousand times already, but were there any similarities between the offenders apart from say gender?
Kristi McVee (12:02)
Yeah, so I guess, you know, and this is a big question I get really. I don't want to make it a gendered issue purely because it takes away from the fact that abuse is like from the children. But we know that over 90 percent of all sexual abuse is by men. β so, yeah, so the similarities would be in the grooming techniques in that they are very good at gaslighting sort of. And I've been I've been considering this overnight as well.
Chey (12:09)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mm.
Okay.
Kristi McVee (12:28)
because I knew we were having this conversation. They're very good at being that favorite person or that really charismatic person within the team. And they groom adults and children. They usually groom adults first and children second. So before the child's even being abused, they're already grooming the adults so that the adults are less likely to see what's happening. It's sort of like a magician's trick, right? Nothing to see here, but you're doing this over here.
Chey (12:39)
Hmm
Right.
Kristi McVee (12:56)
of thing. β So they've already groomed the adults. they're that, know, in this setting of like an early childhood education center, they'd be best friends with the director, they would be really close to, you know, anyone in the higher ups, they're going to be really helpful to those people, they're going to be bending over backwards to help them and make it easier on them. And that's because then, and then they're also, you know, if anyone starts getting curious, or maybe suspect
Chey (12:56)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Kristi McVee (13:24)
They're also going to go on a complete campaign to discredit that person and they're going to make them seem like they don't like them. They've never liked them before. They make false accusations. They're the victim. The person who's over here grooming everyone is the victim and this person over massively so. mean, of course.
Chey (13:32)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Very narcissistic.
Kristi McVee (13:49)
But also whilst they're doing that and they're grooming children, they're also putting a wedge between children and at safe adults. So they might be, you know, that really, really important person in that child's life, someone that that child can talk to about anything. They're giving them treats or special treatment that, you know, might not be will be against policy probably, but also is making the child feel special.
They're also encouraging secrets between the child and the person that's grooming them. And over time, usually over time, the child then stops communicating with others and going to other people. They're very much attached, especially in early childhood, very attached to this person. But. Yeah.
Chey (14:26)
Hmm.
Well, yeah, as you were
describing, I'm thinking to myself like, wow, childcare is the perfect environment because we are actively promoted to create those relationships with families and children. So from a very naive, I guess, perspective, it can look like just a really good employee.
Kristi McVee (14:47)
Mm-hmm.
Mm hmm. Yeah. And I mean, I think if you if you look at it from the lens of okay, and I talk about the fact that grooming versus inappropriate behaviors, you know, someone who is just being inappropriate, because they don't know any better, will usually will usually when it's cool, when they're called out on that behavior, or when someone brings it to their attention, they will then attempt to rectify and fix that and be apologetic, because they just didn't realize, you know, but someone who's grooming will deflect and discredit
Chey (15:05)
Mm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (15:22)
and destroy the person who's doing it or, you know, they'll just pretend they'll deflect mostly. I would never do that. I don't understand why you would think that about me. That's so, you know, like, and then they go into that victimhood again. But also in these situations, I mean, you can be, you can have these kinds of, you can have these kinds of relationships with families and children without excluding all children. It should be equal.
Chey (15:24)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (15:47)
you know, you should be having these relationships with families and these relationships with children because you're someone who spends so much time with these kids. It's really important that you do have these close, safe attachments. Otherwise, they don't want to be there, right? They're going to be a nightmare to deal with. So you can have those attachments without actually excluding other children from that or without, you know, with having safe boundaries around that attachment as well. So I don't think it's a I don't think it's when you don't understand the actual
Chey (15:59)
Exactly. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (16:16)
what a safe adult is or if you don't have like some boundaries around how to have those safe relationships. you know, in these situations, how this happened, I believe with this person. And again, let's look at the current case. You know, he obviously groomed and abused the workers. He groomed the workers or the staff. And there was some staff who had identified that he was a concern.
Chey (16:22)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Kristi McVee (16:41)
that they weren't listened to or they were dismissed and it was deflected off him. But these children were only five months to two years old that I'm aware. Most of his victims were only very little, unable to verbalize. There was no victim disclosures. There was no worker disclosures of seeing him abused. And the only way he could have done that is if he was given time and space alone with those children. And how he managed that was by grooming everyone around him.
Chey (17:08)
I completely agree. This week in preparation for this, I read the Ashley Griffith case. Because I wanted to understand what opportunities did this guy have to understand what opportunities this Joshua guy had. Reading through it,
Kristi McVee (17:19)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've been reading that too.
Chey (17:32)
When we're talking about his body parts being exposed and recordings for up to six minutes long, I'm thinking operationally, like as a director, even educator, I'm thinking there's no way that he would have been able to do those things if there was remotely an educator around. When you translate that into the Brown case and the age that he was with, it's very plausible that
Kristi McVee (17:49)
Exactly.
Chey (17:57)
He was with one to four or one to five or in Victoria, it's one to four for both age groups. It's very common. It's a very common practice for services, especially around lunchtimes where breaks need to happen. Ashley Griffith took β a lot of opportunities, as we know, during sleep time. It makes me wonder if a similar
Kristi McVee (18:06)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Chey (18:21)
events occurred where Brown did take that opportunity where he was alone with those four children asleep and he knew no one's coming back for half an hour because they were on their break. yeah, it's incredible that it's not a law already. Not just for, you know,
Kristi McVee (18:34)
Yeah, right. That's just wild to me.
Chey (18:45)
these abuse cases, but just purely for risk in the sense of what happens if a staff member has a heart attack.
Kristi McVee (18:50)
Yes.
Yes, exactly. Or a medical episode or one of the children has a medical episode whilst there's only one educator on duty and they're having to, but there's three other children needing assistance at the same time. I think it's just, the risk is, the fact is, is that we wouldn't do this to any other, we wouldn't allow this in any other space.
Chey (18:54)
and then not.
Absolutely.
No, no.
Kristi McVee (19:16)
There should
be a minimum of two at all times. that means that, know, centres should have to employ more people.
Chey (19:22)
And in most cases, they wouldn't need to employ more people. Because the thing is, β we move children around to save money. We can move children around to keep them safe. So if there's an educator with five children in one classroom, there's an educator in another classroom with four children, just combine them until someone starts their shift. It's a lot safer.
Kristi McVee (19:27)
No.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, well,
yeah. And I mean, they do do that. have seen, I remember my daughter when she was really young, she did, so she's done all forms of childcare. So she initially was in a, know, a couple of days a week whilst I worked part time before I became a police officer. And then she's had au pairs from, you know, international au pairs because it worked better when I had shift work. that, cause I didn't have anyone to, no family, no anything.
And then she's been in before and after school, long daycare, whole, of it. And with family. so, you know, I've seen them, they moved her when she was two because she was so very verbal, very mobile, very everything. She moved into the bigger group because they needed space for kids in the little ones, you know, in the little, I don't know, ages, but she was obviously ready to move up at the time. Or they were just pushing her up because she was reasonable.
β in that space. So, but that's they do it all the time. They honestly do, you know, collapse classrooms or join and combine classrooms, especially in before and after school care. They do that a lot as well. So in this case, sorry, yeah. So in this case, I think in this case, I think what your point is, that, know, the risk factor
Chey (20:44)
Mmm.
Yeah, absolutely.
Kristi McVee (21:00)
for education centers and for educators is to ensure that they're with someone at all times because if you're a safe adult, you're going to want to ensure the safety of children.
Chey (21:10)
Yes, absolutely. And I think it's a critical thing for parents to look out for when they're children off and in the afternoons. It's a really good sign. How stressed are the staff in the mornings? Because that's the time where you have that filtering of everyone starting in different shifts times. there's going to be moments where, okay, are they out of ratio?
Is there too many children and there's only one staff member and you've got someone else running around? That's a really good identifier that they're short staffed because there's no reason for there not to be enough children, not enough staff. And the reason I say that is because they have the data. They know when children arrive and when children leave. So if they can use that data to understand how many staff members do I need on premises every day, what's the pattern?
Kristi McVee (21:43)
Mm.
Yep.
Chey (22:02)
There should be
Kristi McVee (22:02)
Yep.
Chey (22:03)
no reason why they don't have enough people in those critical movement periods.
Kristi McVee (22:08)
Yeah. Yeah, I think you've raised a really good point about the lunch breaks. And we know with the Ashley Griffiths case that he was using lunch periods as a way to abuse children. was clear. And, you know, that brings up the CCTV footage because his last centre actually had cameras and he was working around them. And I know, look, I don't think that's having I think having CCTV cameras is good in that it helps with identifying if something's gone wrong and it actually can help educators at times.
Chey (22:22)
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (22:35)
to help them if something is claimed. But at the same time, it's not gonna protect kids in the immediate because unless someone's watching in every moment, then it's not going. You literally have to be watching those cameras to see if everything's going safely. And I saw in one of the recent reports on ABC about that poor, that center that was using cameras to watch children while they were sleeping so that they didn't have to be in the room. And that poor little girl passed away. And I think,
Chey (22:45)
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (23:03)
So, know, while CCTV cameras can assist and they are an assistance tool, they're not a, it is not a catch-all risk. You know, it's not gonna catch everything. It's not gonna be there to protect kids.
Chey (23:08)
Mmm.
I completely agree. And that practice of watching them through the cameras to sleep, I think it's improved a lot now, but in the past years, it was overused far too much. And a lot of children did get, yeah. And so I guess.
Kristi McVee (23:31)
have been hurt and what.
Yeah.
Chey (23:34)
There's all these different solutions that governments are coming up with and this and this and this. But at the end of the day, the providers and owners really need to make sure that the things that are happening in the services are preventing these opportunities for it to occur in the first place. It doesn't matter how many laws or legislations we have in place. β A good example is the CCS. So it's been in legislation
Kristi McVee (23:51)
Yeah.
Yes.
Chey (24:00)
for quite a few years already that services can have their childcare subsidy removed if they're working with children checks and not up to date. But I've been in services and I've seen employees where they're working with children checks have not been verified. So when we talk about legislation, there are already things in place. Why is it not working?
Kristi McVee (24:09)
Ha
Because
it's not working for one reason, one reason only. There is too much rope given to services to maintain status quo and keep the doors open because obviously if a service is shut down or if their CCS is removed, the parents are going to be the ones who have to front the cover. if that happens and they leave, parents don't have this, there's limited spaces in a lot of cases anyway.
Chey (24:32)
Hmm.
Mm.
Kristi McVee (24:47)
they don't have like we don't have an abundance of child early childhood centers right now anyway. So parents are struggling to get the right care regardless. And so a lot of the times parents feel like they're stuck, that they have to stay where they are, because unless a space moves comes available in another center, and it's, you know, whatever. So I think for that CCS thing that
Chey (24:59)
Mm.
Kristi McVee (25:09)
That's interesting you bring that up. That was a question I got on sunrise on Monday morning about like the removal of CCS. And they said, that obviously, the question was, will that fix the problem? And I said, well, it's going to incentivize directors, but is it going to fix it? Well, how long is it going to take them to have it removed before they actually do anything about it? And how long is how long is the rope?
Chey (25:14)
Uh-huh.
Well, this is the thing.
Exactly. So when the state regulators have done their spot checks and they've identified these gaps in staff records, they're already not communicating it to national government. So it will be very interesting to see how they are going to ensure the communication between the state regulators is consistent and ongoing with the national regulator.
Kristi McVee (25:44)
I feel this.
Yeah, I'm not I'm already feeling a little bit disillusioned with the current the current noise in the in the government around how to fix this. They're also talking about those more. The other question I had on sunrise on Monday was that they would give them extra powers to do spot checks without a warrant, but they already have that power. So where is like this is just lip service that we're getting. And I'm definitely not OK with what's what is being said, because
Chey (26:13)
Cheers.
Kristi McVee (26:23)
That is not going to protect kids. That's just going to give again, how long is the rope? But one thing you brought up is the working with children's check and parents. Obviously, this is a large topic of conversation because we know that working with children's checks don't show intent. They only show if someone's been charged. A lot of the times, education centers and regulators aren't notified until a charge has been made. So and I know from my experience of investigating these cases.
Chey (26:38)
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (26:49)
that we don't notify anyone until there's a charge made and a lot of cases go without charge because it's the burden of proof that police have to to to the expectation to find you know it's beyond a reasonable doubt so therefore you can't just charge anyone for anything without actually having evidence and you know in this case in Victoria with Brown for instance he would probably have gotten away with it for a lot longer if he hadn't have been
Chey (26:58)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Kristi McVee (27:16)
β if someone else hadn't been picked up with the exploitation material that he had sent them. So he hung himself in his own noose because he had distributed the child exploitation material he was creating in this centre and therefore that was how he was caught. And I'm thankful for that because he could have been doing this for years like Griffiths if he hadn't of. And Griffiths was caught in a similar way because he
Chey (27:21)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (27:43)
was finally identified from exploitation material that he had been creating for over 10 years. So, you know, if this exploitation material wasn't picked up, they could have continued to abuse. I think for the working with children's check, yes, it needs to be nationally regulated and it needs to be better, what's the word I'm looking, communicated, but it's not a catchall.
Chey (27:48)
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (28:05)
You know, we know that it's not going to catch the people who are investigated, but not charged. It's not going to catch the people who are, you know, who have intentions, but, know, and we had a saying in the police, you only catch the dumb pedophiles. it is because the smart ones don't get caught.
Chey (28:18)
Which is sad.
Hmm.
What's your opinion or I guess in your experience, you know, I read a lot of the NCAT Tribunal cases and I've read a couple of situations where the Working with Children Check system worked and barred this person, but they've gone to tribunal and they've had it overturned. And this is people that have had possession of child sex material. And something that when I'm reading these cases that comes up,
Kristi McVee (28:25)
So. β
Chey (28:49)
often is their use of mental health and how I was only looking at that when I was depressed. And I'm not depressed anymore, so I'm not interested in that. And I'll say to someone the other day, said, I don't know about you, but when I'm sad, my sexual preferences don't change. It's like, what's your opinion on the fact that those people are now then working with children?
Kristi McVee (28:57)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well...
I think it's a massive cop out and it's a huge risk. We know that, like you said, you're reflecting on it from your own perspective. My sexual preferences don't change because I'm depressed. No, they don't. Usually you have a lower sexual desire. You don't actually want to be engaged in that. And we know there's research that shows that people who watch child exploitation material and child abuse material are 60 % more likely to go and seek out children afterwards.
Chey (29:27)
Mm.
Kristi McVee (29:43)
So we know that it increases the risk of abuse. know that children, know, offenders who watch child abuse material actually go on to offend if they don't find a way to curb their abuse, the watching of abuse material. We're actually seeing offenders younger and younger now. We used to only, not only, but we used to see a lot more offenders in their 40s and 50s and 60s because they might've been offending in their earlier years, but it takes a long time for their
Chey (30:04)
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (30:11)
There's some really interesting psychology around this. I'm not a psychologist. just understand what I've seen. But you know, like there's those intrinsic, you know, boundaries that you have inside yourself, like, you know, it goes against your values, you know, that it's wrong, you know, that it hurts someone else, you know, that all of these things, and you've got these like little barriers in your brain, like it's all boxed up in your brain, and you understand that, right. But when you watch child exploitation material and abuse material, and
Chey (30:24)
Mm-hmm.
Kristi McVee (30:39)
Again, I'll just refer to the fact is we're seeing younger offenders because children and young people are having access to pornography and it is conditioning and exposing them to material that their brains can't actually understand. We know that pornography, you know, and I'm talking about arousal of the brain, not arousal, but you have to after a while watching the same pornography, you no longer have that arousal response.
Chey (30:46)
Hmm.
dopamine.
Kristi McVee (31:05)
that dopamine hit. So you have to watch different porn to be able to then become attracted, like to get aroused, right? So you get you, so there's a progression from normal pornography, which there's no normal pornography anymore, to more violent pornography of choking and hitting and degradation and stuff like that, to, you know, then you're more violent porn to bestiality to child abuse material.
Chey (31:11)
Yeah.
Mm.
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (31:29)
And so it's a progression because, then, so if children are starting to watch porn at 12, for instance, then that progression is going to go faster. And what we know is now that they land on child abuse material and then they go and seek out children and they do it to children. And we're seeing that younger and younger. So for instance, that, that, you know, excuse of, well, I was depressed at the time and that's what I was watching.
Chey (31:43)
Right.
Hmm.
Kristi McVee (31:52)
Well, that is a real concern because if they're in a state of depression where they're feeling bad and they're watching abuse of other children, tells me more about their mental. It's not about their mental health. It's about this. There's more psychiatry going on, I believe, and that they're attracted to children. And one of the things that I talk about in podcasts and in presentations is
Chey (32:09)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (32:18)
not all pedophiles or child sex offenders are actually attracted to children. Some of them can be attracted to adults but abuse children anyway because it makes them feel powerful, gives them control, they're in a position of power. We've got three types of offenders. The first is pedophilic or predatory. They're only attracted to children. They're our classic sex offender. β But they are more likely to offend against boys.
Chey (32:40)
Mm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (32:44)
And
in my experience, I've seen them. And when we think about a pedophile, think or we talk, say, what do you see when you think pedophile? We think of like that trench coat, know, flashing, you know, maybe in a white van handing out lollies, right? Then the next sex offender or potential sex offender is β opportunistic. They can be attracted to children and adults and they can have relationships with adults and then abuse children.
Chey (32:55)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (33:10)
So, you know, and quite often with those people, I see them in like their parents or their grandparents or, you know, family members or, you know, the dads of a friend or whatever. They're the people who are happily married or seem happily married, et cetera. And then you've got the situational offender. And I liken them to when you hear of the stories where someone's broken into a house and then they've gone and raped.
Chey (33:14)
you
Kristi McVee (33:34)
the grandparent or the older person in that house. It's like the situation was there and they took it. And in a lot of those cases with the situational offender, they've had a loss of control or their addictions got overtaken them or the opportunity was there so they took it. But they don't necessarily have an attraction to children. So with Brown and Griffiths, they put themselves in a position so they could be near children.
Chey (33:39)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Right.
Hmm.
Kristi McVee (34:00)
And getting back to how this happened, this can happen in anyone's home. Like we know that over 90 % of child sexual abuse happens, you know, over 90 % of child sexual abuse happens by someone known to the child. We know that someone who is attracted to children will find ways, they're three times more likely to put themselves in a position where they can work with children or have a job that is with children. So.
With those risks involved, we need to make sure that we tighten up the policies and the supervision around spaces where children are.
Chey (34:31)
β
Absolutely. No, this was great because my mind's ticking and think almost the HR companies and directors almost need critical training around this stuff so that they can make executive decisions when hiring, also in that three months.
Kristi McVee (34:37)
Yeah, that was a lot of information, sorry.
Chey (34:55)
probation period, really monitoring the interactions and the behaviors around staff members so that they can identify any concerns or red flags and keep a record for any ongoing concerns. don't think many directors or HR managers would know where to start when looking at who's at risk. And so this information would be.
Kristi McVee (35:07)
you
Yeah.
Chey (35:21)
incredibly critical as a way of prevention.
Kristi McVee (35:24)
Yeah, I think and I mean, this is how I ended up in this space and it wasn't what I was thinking when I started, but I think that's the thing. if we can, we know that the research is there, the patterns are there, the stories are there. We don't even need to do any more research to know how to identify. I mean, look, they're not, we can't look in the street and go, that's a pedophile, that's a pedophile, that's a pedophile. There's no way to do that because they all look different. It's not like you can pick them out of a lineup. It's gonna be on behavior.
Chey (35:39)
Mm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Kristi McVee (35:52)
and we need to focus on behaviors and pay attention to behaviors.
Chey (35:56)
Yeah.
that's really interesting.
Kristi McVee (35:58)
Yeah. I think the next part to this conversation really, and I would love to hear from you. I mean, we've talked about CCTV, we've just we touched on ratios and we've touched on the working with children's check and the the CCS, I guess from our perspective to help round this out, you know, we've given so much information is what do think parents can do to ensure that the centre that they entrust with their child is doing everything right, or at least attempting to get there like
you know, they're putting, you know, the right things in place, the right policies in place and making efforts. What things do you think parents need to be on the watch out?
Chey (36:32)
Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the key things is that transparency. So when parents are asking questions or have concerns, how are they being managed and how open is the center in communicating concerns? Are they hiding anything if an accident happens or an incident in the service occurred? Are they sending communications out to families even if you're not involved?
Kristi McVee (36:37)
Mm.
Chey (36:56)
just letting you know this has happened, this is what we're doing about it. That transparency and that honesty is a really good indicator that they're not trying to brush anything under the rug. Another thing that I would consider is how the staff are, how supported they are. Is it a revolving door? Are they open to feedback?
Do you see them or hear any updates about training and development? And usually staff members will give you a pretty honest answer if you ask them, when was your last staff training or do you feel like you're supported fully? But also every service is supposed to have an open door policy which allows families to come in at any time.
A major red flag is if the center is making up random rules, and I've heard of this recently, which was concerning, if they're saying, you can't come into the center between these hours, or some centers had prolonged the COVID methods of dropping their children off at the front foyer and not letting families into the classrooms. If they're still doing things like that, that's a red flag.
Kristi McVee (37:58)
you
Chey (38:02)
There should be no reason why parents can't go into the classrooms. So that open door policy is critical. and testing it out. if you do have a bit of a longer lunch break or you have 10 minutes popping in and seeing what it's like during the middle of the day, because that will give you a really good indication of what's going on when parents aren't normally around. Also, any opportunity to go on like incursions or excursions.
Kristi McVee (38:16)
Hmm.
Chey (38:27)
is an opportunity to see what's happening in the service. So, yeah, often because it's a busy period, we've got so many things we're dealing with and managing, masks can't be held up for too long. And so you get to see the educators in their natural flow and you'll get to see how they're interacting with children, as well as the numbers of staff. β So looking for opportunities, essentially, to connect with the service.
Kristi McVee (38:30)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chey (38:52)
One thing I always, I guess for parents who are feeling concerned and just want reassurance during this time, they are allowed to ask their center for a compliance record. So every service, yes, so it's a regulatory requirement that services keep a record of their compliance history.
Kristi McVee (38:52)
Yeah.
Chey (39:11)
which would include any breaches, any regulatory action, compliance action taken against them, any prohibitions, things like that. It's supposed to be in service. So parents are allowed to access that at any time. And if they say, we don't have one, that's a red flag. Even just a template.
Kristi McVee (39:23)
Mmm.
Right.
Chey (39:30)
So say for example, it's a brand new
Kristi McVee (39:32)
Yeah.
Chey (39:32)
center and knock on wood, they've actually had no compliance. There should still be at least some sort of template with a spot check, the state or whatever on it. there is a, yeah, yeah, and parents can access that.
Kristi McVee (39:44)
Yeah, so that they've been checked.
Yeah, so can they go anywhere online to actually check these or is it all in service that you have to ask for them?
Chey (39:54)
So the specific service-based information is just in service at this stage. Each state's regulatory department does have information on certain compliance actions. Depending on the state, depends on how detailed it is, or even if they provide the names. Western Australia is the best by far, because they'll, yeah, no, absolutely, it's great.
Kristi McVee (40:15)
That's good to know.
Chey (40:18)
β They'll publish everything. New South Wales and ACT is the worst. ACT publish absolutely nothing. A lot of New South Wales's data is numbers, how many per quarter type thing. They publish the most serious compliance actions when services have been shut down or a child's passed away or things like that.
There's an element where you can search those websites, it just depends on your state.
Kristi McVee (40:42)
Can you explain a couple of terms to me? So one of the things that I read was the, and I don't know, the regulatory, the report that comes out once a year about, you know, how many services there are, how much, like how many compliance checks they've done, et cetera, et cetera. It's called the ACWA, something Australian National Child Care Quality Assurance, something around that. Does that sound right? β
Chey (41:05)
As β a sequel?
Kristi McVee (41:10)
Sequi maybe, I don't know. I read a
report about it and I should really get to know these terms better. But my husband who's a data nerd and he's because he's autistic, so he read it as well and he was getting really enraged in the fact that quite a few services haven't even had spot checks in a lot in a long time. And the other thing that so the term that he kept coming up with was, well, the term was it's in regards to they've obviously had a breach of
Chey (41:37)
Mm-hmm.
Kristi McVee (41:38)
conditions or breach of standards and they have a period to comply or a period what it's you know, they're working towards is the words I think it is. How long do they get? Yeah, how long do they get?
Chey (41:40)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. with their assessment of writing.
Well, this is another thing. So assessment and rating, it's supposed to happen every three or so years. The higher the rating, the longer your wait. So if you're exceeding, you're more likely to see another assessment happen in about five years. If you're working towards, it's meant to be a lot sooner. Now, depending again on your state, depends how proficient that system is.
Kristi McVee (41:56)
Thank
Chey (42:18)
For example, South Australia is really far behind. You've got services who haven't had an assessment in eight years. yeah. So they're one of the worst, but I think for them, their regulatory department's also quite underfunded, to be honest. So it's a bit of a give and take on that situation. But yes, so you're working towards...
Kristi McVee (42:27)
What? Wow.
Yeah.
Chey (42:41)
It all depends on the state's department, what they're prioritizing, the compliance history of the service. So even if they're working towards, but they've never had any major incidences or, you know, breaches, they will still be held off and other services will be put in priority. So you really don't know. There were new assessments put in place recently. I think it was like...
I think it's like two years ago now, what's called a partial assessment, where instead of being rated against all of the quality areas, a center can be assessed against two or three. And that was to eliminate such the long wait periods and to attempt to try and get these working towards services to meeting. So they are working on different strategies.
Kristi McVee (43:21)
white.
Chey (43:30)
To be honest, the inquiries that are happening in the state regulators, so we've got one going on in New South Wales. I think Queensland's just jumped on board. Victoria, they're discussing it in parliament, going back and forth, they're having a bit of a battle. These are going to be really critical in understanding why the systems haven't been working. Because you can get offices coming in and grilling centers over really minute things.
like a piece of paper not being on the wall yet. And what happens is when those things occur, it's taking up resources. So that officer then has to go back to their office, fill out the documentation, do the breach, start communicating with the service and take that process. those resources are then being taken away from a service that
Kristi McVee (43:56)
have heard this.
Chey (44:16)
needs to be shut down or has a history of compliance or has complaints and it's not being addressed β proficiently. I think, and actually I'd be interested to hear your opinion on this where I guess I feel like because the offices are only dealing with through spot checks a particular type of provider and a particular environment where they're only seeing
core practice and only seeing β negative, I guess, environments. Yeah, it's bleeding into their perceptions of going into other services. And so this is where we're getting this mismatch because they're like your police officers are dealing with criminals all day, like all week. You start to see everyone through that lens. And this is where I feel like
Kristi McVee (44:47)
experiences.
Yep, 100%.
Chey (45:06)
the regulatory department really needs to focus on more development with their teams around. Okay, how do we manage that lens? How do we prevent ourself from walking?
Kristi McVee (45:15)
Yeah, no,
it happens in every organization. It's happening in, you know, police child protection. It happens in family court. It happens everywhere. When you're investigating this stuff, also need to be, you know, one investigator and it happened in the police one investigator interprets the legislation and the policies and standards in one way and another investigator has a bit more laxative.
Chey (45:40)
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (45:40)
opinion
and so they investigate it in a different way. It happens everywhere. And what I think is happening in a lot of states that aren't doing this well, and that that training isn't being maintained, and they're not getting that adequate training is there's such a differing but between each that it's not consistent. Therefore, you know, people like yourself who was managing a center
Chey (45:56)
Hmm.
Kristi McVee (46:03)
they don't know whether they're coming or going and Arthur or Martha and they don't know which ones to actually uphold. And you've got to have so much, there's just so much variation there. And you'll hear, because I know like any industry, you're talking between each other and between centers and people are having conversations about this stuff. You'll hear one getting, know, showing, know, breached on this and then another doesn't get breached on it. And so it's really...
there's a lack of consistency in this space. So I think I don't know the I've been, you know, thinking about this for a long time around policing. I wish that someone had to come in and talk to me about how you can become like very your lenses are very, very jaded when you work in this kind of work and you don't get like a breath of fresh air, you don't get an opportunity to see the other side. Because
Chey (46:46)
you
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (46:53)
know, the this, the statement I make all the time is you deal with 5 % of the population 95 % of the time. So when you talk to an average person as a police officer, sometimes you just see them through the lens of that's another person who's doing the wrong thing. So so I think that's what you're saying is it happens everywhere. And it's not until you get clear of that environment that you go, actually, there's a lot of good people out there doing a lot of good things.
Chey (46:59)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
β
And so this is, guess as well, this is where the ratings are no longer serving their purpose, especially for families, because some of the worst centers I've seen are exceeding. having that. β
Kristi McVee (47:20)
Yeah.
Yeah, right. Are they
only sticking on the day of their audit and then the rest of the time they're not doing it very well? I mean, how do they know?
Chey (47:38)
β Absolutely.
One of the changes with that partial assessment that was made is we used to have a lot of time to prepare. It used to be a few weeks. Now we have seven days. That was one of the critical changes that improved the reliability of the rating. It's better. It's not perfect, but it's a lot better than it was, which is why you're seeing a lot of services drop from exceeding back to meeting in these new assessments because
As a manager, I'll confess, I remember I was part of the team whenever we had assessment and rating, all the managers that were really good in particular areas, we would go to a center, we would clean it up. And then sometimes...
Kristi McVee (48:20)
Yeah, exactly.
It happens in every industry.
Chey (48:22)
100 percent and then on the day of assessment, there were times where I pretended to be an educator. So that those practices flowed through for that assessment. When you're in it, because of the environment, yeah, it's normal. It wasn't until I stepped away that I was like, wow, that was really bad. That's unethical. But at the time, I was like, wow.
Kristi McVee (48:28)
Yeah.
to you.
It's normal.
Yes. β don't worry. I've
had those come. Yeah.
Chey (48:47)
Like what an
opportunity, I feel so honored to be part of this project because that's the way they perceive, they put it to you.
Kristi McVee (48:54)
It was like
circling the person who's actually having trouble so that no one can see that they're having trouble and then moving to the next. You're basically not improving anything in that way. And my daughter has this saying these days, if it hurts, that's when you get the biggest lesson. So I feel like centers who are doing the wrong thing need to hurt before they'll actually change and make improvements.
Chey (49:09)
Mmm.
Absolutely.
Kristi McVee (49:17)
you know, if we keep fixing these problems with very, you know, temporary measures, then they're never going to actually fix it. And we know that. So I wanted to say, I wanted to ask before we finish, where can parents report issues if they say something because, and not only parents, there might be some educators who listen to this. the thing is, that
Chey (49:25)
100%.
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (49:37)
And I hope some educators do because I think some of this information that we've talked about is really important. And you brought it up very at the very beginning. Educators are scared to speak up because they lose their jobs. get they get targeted. They get basically made to feel like they're the problem and nothing like, you know, they get targeted. And so it's it's safer. And I know I understand safety inside and out. We do what we have to do to stay safe. So some people will keep
Chey (50:02)
Mm.
Kristi McVee (50:05)
keep it quiet, we'll keep it in, we'll go along with the flow, it's called fawning. And then they, you know, it goes against their integrity, eventually they get sick of, of doing that, and sick from it. So, β where can, where can they go if they anonymously or even giving their name, where can they report issues that they're seeing, so that we can give some power back? mean, first of all, obviously, if they notice any of those things that you pointed out,
And we'll wrap that up at the end, but where can they report?
Chey (50:32)
Absolutely. So if there's any concerns about compliance, concerns about the practices that are happening within the service, you can report to your state's regulatory authority. So usually for each state, it's the Department of Education for that state, but it's also called different things depending on the state. So for example, WA is called Department of Communities. But if you just Google child care in your state,
regulatory authority, it will come up. If you're concerned about a staff member's β performance or their interactions with children, reporting to your child safety ombudsman in the state. So for New South Wales, have our reporting system and every state has their own. I think I actually had listed it on one of my links in my TikTok so I can
I can set those up.
Kristi McVee (51:25)
We'll those in the show. We'll put some of these links in the show notes, I think, because that will help if anyone's got any concerns or wants to look more into it. Because I think from my perspective, I know that when I feel like I've got choice and control, I feel safe. you know, and that's where it comes down to it. Everyone should have, if we feel, everyone has the right to feel safe. And we talk about, I talk about protective behaviors and body safety.
Chey (51:28)
Yeah.
Hmm, absolutely.
Kristi McVee (51:50)
I think one of the things that I would be looking for in a center is body safety education of some description, whether it's and the overall respect of children. You know, if if we don't respect children and if you don't feel respected as an adult or a parent, then I would highly doubt that the children are being respected and treated well. Yes, you've you've pointed out and it was a good point that, you know, sometimes when we're overly stressed and we're and we're struggling.
Chey (51:54)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (52:16)
that's going to bleed onto the children and bleed onto our interactions. So that might not be there every day, but just remember to like, you know, keep that lens of, okay, is this once off or is this how they act, how they behave all the time? And I think that's a good way to look at it because everyone has bad days, even I do. And so, yeah, and I have a lot of bad days with a teenager.
Chey (52:27)
Mm.
Yeah, that's...
Absolutely.
Kristi McVee (52:40)
You know, like, my gosh, I love her to bits, but yeah, some days, honestly, no one warns you. think the young, but mind you, when I was handing her off to the early childhood education centers, I would be like, thank God I don't do that job. I really think educators need to be paid better because they deserve it, honestly.
Chey (53:00)
But this
is why our breaks are so important, right? I know I harp on about it a lot, like, what a way to describe it is to parents. I'm like, you know, it's so draining. We love our job, but I don't think they realize like how overstimulating and how it burns out. can get so quickly if you're not having those just 15 minutes of silence.
Kristi McVee (53:07)
Agreed.
they quit.
Chey (53:22)
where no one is calling your name, no one is asking you a question or pulling on your shirt, silence. it just that opportunity to re-regulate your nervous system, take some water and then come back out because it can make a world of difference. And I just I thought of something else just while you're talking in terms of families. It's a requirement of the law that services if you make it if a parent makes a complaint.
Kristi McVee (53:23)
Yeah.
Chey (53:46)
they're required to notify the regulatory authority. So if you've made a complaint to your service and you have a feeling they're not taking it seriously or following it up, contact the regulatory authority and let them know as well that you've complained to the service because they must report that complaint to them as well.
Kristi McVee (54:04)
That's good to know, but I don't think that's happening to you. β
Chey (54:07)
Not all the time, no. I can guarantee that.
Kristi McVee (54:09)
No, I
think that I think I think a lot of you know, like you talked early on about how if they're transparent and they're honest and they they keep you up to date. That's a really good indicator and we'll wrap up with like some of these key points. That's a really good indicator that they take safety seriously. They're willing to make changes. They're willing to admit fault. They're willing to work with you and work with their staff if they're doing extra training.
Chey (54:29)
Mm.
Kristi McVee (54:34)
I'm sure you and I, I've had conversations with centers who are like, can you come and do a training on this with us? And to me, that says a lot about the fact that they want to get that education into the center and to the families so that they can better equip themselves. Because when we know better, we can do better. And we don't all know everything, right? But if you're not open to change and you're not open to being admitting fault or going, hey, I didn't know that, but let's
find out a way to make this better, then you know, I think that's a really good indicator. Yeah, some of the so to, so to wrap it up, Chey, what could parents look for they're looking for some of the key things that you said.
Chey (55:03)
Absolutely. No, definitely.
Yeah, ratios. I guess the base mentality or the mood, the overall mood of staff on a day-to-day basis. The transparency and communication with the director. How open and honest are they? And also in the rooms and the classrooms.
What did the resources look like? What do the shelves look like? Are they always empty? Are they always doing the same activities day in, day out? Because that's a sign of the provider not putting money into the service. And that's a signal that things can fall through the cracks. So it might not necessarily be an intentional injury or incident, but it's a sign of essentially the provider neglecting the service and where things can.
Kristi McVee (55:40)
Mmm.
Chey (55:57)
happen. reaching out to your community is a big one. Word of mouth, what have other people experienced?
Kristi McVee (56:03)
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, there's always going to be people who have negative experiences of services. if the overall like if we look at it from this perspective of the average of all of the responses are reasonable and good and you and you then you can ascertain that maybe it's not so bad and it's it's it's decent. you know, if you get lots and lots of this the same I get them in my local Facebook group. Which school would you choose this one or this one? Because you know, and then everyone's like,
Chey (56:14)
Mm.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (56:32)
slagging off one school or the other and you know it can be it can become a bit more of a harder decision because you actually can't make a decision because people always have things to say right but you know google reviews google the center look up that β ask when you go for a walkthrough ask for that you know that β report or that document that you're talking about we you know and then you know then they know you're serious they're going to go this parent knows what they're talking about
Chey (56:39)
Yeah.
Mm, absolutely.
Yes, yes. so the right provider will absolutely give you that information. for example, when I was directing, I overreported, right? So if a director is always willing to have you in their office, always willing to share updates and communicate what's going on or give you anything that you need to feel reassured, that's a really good sign.
Kristi McVee (57:18)
Yeah, I agree. I think that shows an amazing space where that where if they're willing to listen to parents, they're willing to listen to kids and that's and they're willing and they're taking it seriously. Well, this has been an amazing conversation, but I feel like we could talk for about three more hours. Chey, if anyone wants to find your resources or you, where can they find you?
Chey (57:25)
Absolutely.
This
Yeah,
absolutely. So my website, DiversionEd, D-I-V-E-R-G-E-N-T-E-D dot com dot A-U. I was about to think about that.
Kristi McVee (57:45)
I'll
make sure it's in the show notes. I love how you're like, I know how to spell this, but.
Chey (57:50)
I was like, hang on a minute.
Or my TikTok is another one if you prefer video format. Otherwise, I do a bit of content on LinkedIn as well. So if you Google my name, Cheyenne Carter, things pop up. But yeah, those are my three main points of call.
Kristi McVee (58:07)
Well, it's an amazing thing for you to turn what you've seen and what you've done into like a new way for parents and for educators, because you're here to advocate for educators. not here as you want educators to have the best work environment and experience that they can. And I really appreciate that because I think there's a lot of pressure on them right now. There's a lot of pressure anyway. This is just another thing on top of it.
Chey (58:31)
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (58:34)
So it's really nice that someone's advocating. I think there needs to be more advocating for educators. And from my perspective for anyone listening, you can find me at Kristi McVie or ChristyMcVie.com. I obviously talk about grooming behaviors, red flag behaviors, predatory behaviors, know, body safety education. I've seen the benefits of body safety education in
both young children and older children in that they disclose abuse quicker and they understand what's happening to them because that's how these people get into these spaces because the younger a child is, the less likely they are to understand what's happening and therefore they're less likely to disclose or expose them. So I think from this experience, I really hope to see change
Chey (59:21)
.
Kristi McVee (59:22)
in the industry and I hope that parents, you know, please send through some
questions or comments to us and hopefully we can maybe we'll do another episode of talking about any questions that parents have maybe. If you're open Chey.
Chey (59:34)
That sounds great. Thanks. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Kristi. It's been a great chat.
Your history and your knowledge is invaluable. And yeah, I think it's really important for people to hear. So thank you for your work as well. I think it's brilliant. children, need the people around them to keep them safe. So everything that we're doing, it's...
Kristi McVee (59:48)
New York
Chey (59:56)
collectively it's making a bigger impact than we probably realize.
Kristi McVee (59:59)
I reckon I really do think that and that's all I can ask for. I am sure you're the same. You you've gone into this space to advocate for educators, but at the same time when educators are better provided for and better supported, they can do a better job. So it's going to impact children in both ways. So thank you so much.
Chey (1:00:17)
No worries, thank you Kristi, appreciate it.
Kristi McVee (1:00:19)
Thank you for listening to this episode. Education empowers children, strengthens parents and most importantly, prevents abuse. That's why I do this work and that's why you're here. So truly thank you. If you'd like more support or resources, follow me on social media under Kristi McVee or CAPE-AU where you'll find all the links in the show notes. You can also grab a copy of my book, Operation KidSafe, a detective's guide to child abuse prevention at www.cape-au.com
where you'll find further resources and self-paced courses to help you in this journey of protecting your kids. If you found this episode valuable, please take a moment to leave a review or share it with someone important. Your support helps more parents and caregivers discover this important information and take action to keep kids safe. Check the show notes for extra links and support. And most importantly, thank you for showing up and taking action to protect your kids. See you next time.
