Jessica Ella (00:02)
So they've got
a volume of trauma and a volume of traumatic memories that are, what I find is that it's not so much what happened to them anymore. It actually becomes a part of their identity when it's all they've ever known. And so if we have an experience, it's an isolated experience, we can be like, that thing happened to me. But when something happens to you in those formative years over and over and over again, it's like, I'm disgusting. I'm worthless. There's something wrong with me. I'm unlovable. And it becomes those acts of what someone else is doing becomes your identity. So
Kristi McVee (00:27)
their identity.
Jessica Ella (00:30)
for these women with trauma, it actually looks like a lot of belief work around their identity and shifting their subconscious beliefs around how they actually see themselves and perceive themselves. it's a little bit, that process is a little bit longer, but even so, it's like a matter of one session a month over a few months, not years. So it is quite rapid,
Kristi McVee (00:48)
Yeah, yeah. Wow.
Kristi McVee - Intro (00:50)
Welcome to Conversations with Kristi I'm Kristi McVee a former WA police officer, specialist child interviewer and child abuse detective. For years I worked on the front lines investigating child sexual abuse, where I saw the risks, the patterns and most importantly, the ways that we can protect our kids. Now I'm here to share that knowledge with you. This podcast is all about real conversations, giving parents, carers and educators the tools to keep their kids safe, both in person and online.
Through survivor stories, expert insights and practical advice, we'll navigate these tough topics together so you feel informed, confident and empowered. Because when we know better, we can do better and our kids deserve nothing less. CONTENT WARNING Some topics and conversations can be triggering for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised as your mental health is important. Please refer to my website and the show notes for available support services.
Kristi McVee (01:43)
Hello and welcome back to Conversations with Kristi. I'm with the amazing Jessica Ella who we connected because I was on Jess's podcast a few months ago. And when we were chatting off camera, I realized, wow, I have to get you on my own podcast. And it's been a few months now, but I'm so grateful for you making time and for being here today. Thank you.
Jessica Ella (02:06)
Thanks for having me. I'm very excited for our chat because yeah, as you said, off camera, we were like,
Kristi McVee (02:10)
I was like,
quick, better press record. So Jess, with regards to exactly what you're doing, and because you're in a very interesting space in this world that we are in, right? I don't want to tell people what you do. I want you to explain it because, but you're in a very interesting space and you have a very different, you've had some lived experience that you'll go through and you'll explain, but you've also
Jessica Ella (02:28)
Yep.
Kristi McVee (02:37)
you have a very different opinion and experience. And that's what makes it so amazing when I have conversations like this with people, because each person obviously has different experiences and they deal with it in different ways. And you've done an amazing job in your own right ⁓ with what you do and how you help people now. So explain to my listeners exactly who you are, where you're from and what brought you into this world of, you know,
⁓ helping people through their trauma of child sexual abuse and abuse.
Jessica Ella (03:09)
Yes. Thank you. So yeah, I'm Jessica Ella and I do a number of different things at the moment, but yeah, basically through my own lived experience of sexual trauma with my father and my grandfather, I got into the healing world or the therapy world. I didn't go down the traditional route of psychology. I kind of looked at that a little bit too late into not too late, but I'd already done a lot of studies. And by the time I looked at that, it was like,
not gonna be able actually use any of these methods that I wanna use if I actually get registered, because a lot of them are like a little bit unorthodox, we'll say. But they work and I knew that they worked because I had hundreds of examples of women with sexual trauma who were healing time and time again by using these methods. So I was working one-on-one with women with sexual trauma, not just sexual trauma, like a lot of just childhood trauma in general, emotional abuse, physical abuse.
a lot of eating disorders, drug addiction, all variety of things. And it kind of, started out as just a passion project. I'd sold my last company and I was doing $50 sessions because it was just lighting me up. And within the first year, I think I saw nearly over 300, nearly 400 people. it, it just by referral, everyone was like, you've got to see this girl. You've got to see this woman. again, it just, blew up very quickly. And
Yeah. So I started to use these methods that I still use and now teach to help women to actually heal from trauma. Because what I was finding was that people would come to me and they'll say, like, I've been to so many different people and I kind of don't even really believe you when you say you can help me because I've done so many different things and nothing's worked. And so I became next level obsessed with figuring out that like full solution to how do we not just live with trauma.
and just not be traumatized anymore. How do we actually fix it and, and move on with life fully so that it's in the past so that it doesn't affect us, our body, our mind, anything. So I created my own method after I'd studied for almost 10 years, created my method, started using it, it took off and then yeah, it kind of snowballed from there. And now I've got a clinic. So I teach other women who were in the field how to work with it. And then I've got
⁓ my top therapist in like a clinic where I now send my like followers from Instagram and people and they go to that clinic. yeah, so it's been, and then obviously my mom and sister and I wrote the book secret or surprise. So
Kristi McVee (05:28)
You what?
Yeah, yeah, an
amazing book and I highly recommend it. We can talk more about that as we go. But that's how I kind of came into your world really, because I think you your mum might have reached out to me or followed me. ⁓ yeah, she's so sweet. and then yeah, that's how I came into your world. And we started, you know, seeing what you were doing and stuff like that. And I'm really intrigued by what you do, actually, I like hugely intrigued.
Jessica Ella (05:44)
Yeah!
She did.
Yeah,
it's pretty cool. It's very unique in that it works. ⁓
Kristi McVee (06:08)
It's unique
in that you don't have to keep doing this over and over and over again and speaking to someone for 20 years.
Jessica Ella (06:11)
Yeah!
Yeah, right. That's the most common feedback from women with sexual trauma, especially to the scale that I've experienced and that I work with. So I work a lot with women with complex trauma and complex PTSD. So some with one isolated incident, a lot of them like constant reoccurring abuse. Some of them torture, some of them rape at a young age, things like that. So, and they've experienced it not just once, but over and over again. So they've got
a volume of trauma and a volume of traumatic memories that are, what I find is that it's not so much what happened to them anymore. It actually becomes a part of their identity when it's all they've ever known. And so if we have an experience, it's an isolated experience, we can be like, that thing happened to me. But when something happens to you in those formative years over and over and over again, it's like, I'm disgusting. I'm worthless. There's something wrong with me. I'm unlovable. And it becomes those acts of what someone else is doing becomes your identity. So
Kristi McVee (07:05)
their identity.
Jessica Ella (07:09)
for these women with trauma, it actually looks like a lot of belief work around their identity and shifting their subconscious beliefs around how they actually see themselves and perceive themselves. it's a little bit, that process is a little bit longer, but even so, it's like a matter of one session a month over a few months, not years. So it is quite rapid, yeah.
Kristi McVee (07:26)
Yeah, yeah. Wow. That's pretty amazing.
And I guess from my perspective, you know, I did the fact that you can do that first, like I saw so many kids who I would, you know, try and after an interview, I would be like, you're so amazing. You're so brave. And you know, no matter what's happened to you, it doesn't make you who you are, if they were old enough to talk about to like that to or
That was how I would talk to young tweens and teens. And then with little people, I'd be like, you're so amazing. You're such a brave person. it'd be all high fives. And I can't wait to see how amazing you are when you grow up and stuff like that. And then that was how I was talking to kids because I didn't see them as like, unfortunately, a lot of people see someone with childhood trauma or child abuse, especially sexual abuse.
they feel like, you know, there's so much like shame, guilt, blame, know, disgust, you know, how could that happen? And then, you know, like for a lot of like in like your situation, in a lot of children's situations where it's been a long-term thing, like it's someone in their family, it's a parent or it's a grandparent or an uncle or whoever.
Jessica Ella (08:25)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (08:40)
When it is like that, it does leave a massive impact on their belief systems, especially so, you know, and then the other family members kind of like, you know, and I know that it's, yeah, like, we don't talk about it. ⁓ like, let's not talk about it. Let's not address it. Let's not. And so there's always this like bubble around this trauma.
Jessica Ella (08:51)
Right, they fly away. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (09:02)
that no one wants to address, no one wants to talk about. And then as you age as a child and as an adult, you're like, well, this is a thing we don't talk about. This is a thing we don't deal with.
Jessica Ella (09:02)
Mm.
Yup. And it adds to the shame. Like they just carry all of the shame in that bubble on their own because no one else is talking to them about it. And so that's why if sec, this is going to sound really controversial, but sexual abuse itself as in the act is not the most traumatic part. The most traumatic part is carrying it and being really confused by it and not knowing what that is that's happening to you and why it's happening and why it feels so uncomfortable and actually carrying the secret. And then
getting older and learning, that's actually what it is. And it's really wrong, but not knowing that what they did was wrong. You just think that you're wrong. And if you don't have anyone to speak to like yourself, if they're not coming forward and they've not got someone saying, you're so brave and well done. And I'm really proud of you and can't wait to see what you can do with your life. They're just carrying this narrative of like, I'm disgusting. Something's wrong with me. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (10:00)
wrong. Yeah.
Well, I guess that it would be really good for people to understand how you got to this place because you've you've made comment in the very beginning that you know, you were sexually abused by your father and your grandfather. And so I guess to give some highlight on what happened to you and then what led you down the path to this amazing practice that you have.
Jessica Ella (10:24)
Yeah, so I was sexually abused from as early as I can remember. The first memory is around three. It could have been happening prior to that, but I just don't have any like conscious memories. And it was happening all throughout my childhood with my biological father. He was with my mom until I was about seven and then they divorced. And then it kind of got a little bit worse from there when he would have me on his own. But yeah, he was, take any opportunity that he could. was
sexual acts that I would have to do, things that he would do to me. was always very much positioned as like, this is our special time and I love you and this is what you do with somebody that you love. But on the flip side of that, I believe pretty strongly that he has some sort of split personality. Cause on the flip side of that, he would be quite angry and aggressive and he would threaten to kill me. He would come into my room. remember one memory where I was five years old and he came into my room drunk at night and he was holding a pillow over my face until I...
felt like I was gonna die and then he would take it off and he would put it back on and take it off and he was saying to me, I'm gonna bury you, I'm gonna kill you and bury you in the backyard and he told me exactly where he'd bury me if I ever told anybody. So there was like this really big divide from a young age of like, it's special and it's sacred and it's love and that's what love is and that's what you do with someone you love but you can't tell anyone, cause you'll die. And so that was kind of carried on throughout childhood and then his father, my grandfather,
also raped me and took my virginity when I was seven. And when I was 13, I told my father that my oppa, I called him because he's Hungarian, I told him that my oppa had raped me when I was seven because he had not been in our life for a little while. They had a very up and down relationship on and off, cutting him out for years. And he sort of came back into our life and I was like, ⁓ I don't want him back in our life. He did this when I was seven.
And instead of protecting me, they got together. He went and told his father that I'd told him and they decided that I needed to be, I needed to be punished. I needed to be shown that I needed to be quiet. And they got together and tortured me quite sadistically, like things that I wouldn't even probably want to say on here. Cause I feel like it would trigger people and it's just like, just horrific, just not something that anyone should ever have to experience on top of everything else. But
Yeah, so then from that moment, it was very much like, if you tell anyone, like, they're gonna torture you, you're gonna die. Like I thought that day that I was going to die. So I just really repressed it, pushed it down and told myself that I was, that there was something wrong with me and I was disgusting and I'd have all these flashbacks of these sexual things with my dad. And I'd just be like, you're disgusting. If anyone knew that you were thinking about that and remembering those things, they would not love you, not want to be around you.
So it was just like this huge secret that I was carrying. And then when I was around 19 or 20, the abuse had stopped for a while. I moved out of home quite young and I'd gone to my dad's house one night for dinner and he'd convinced me to stay the night and watch a movie with him after dinner. My siblings had left and I remember laying in the bed and hearing my door open and I knew exactly why he was coming and he raped me then when I was older. And that was actually harder because I really knew.
what was happening then, but I couldn't move because my body was so conditioned to this freeze response of when he comes, you just play dead. And so that was a really big pivotal moment in my life really kind of went down from there. I've really struggled. I'd already been struggling in my teens with mental health. was suicidal. I thinking about death every single day. was just, I hated myself. Like I looked in the mirror and I hated myself. I thought I was the most disgusting person in the world. I picked myself apart.
picked bad boyfriends and ended up in abusive relationships time and time again. And it wasn't until I met my now ex-husband that I started working on myself, actually for the wrong reason, but it's meant to happen. I started working on myself because he told me that I was too needy because I wanted to spend time with him. Classic. Thanks mate.
Kristi McVee (14:20)
Thanks, mate. Thanks, mate.
Jessica Ella (14:22)
My mom was quite a spiritual person and she was always, you know, teaching us little spiritual concepts and things like that. And so I went to her and was like, how do I work on myself? Like, how do I work on myself? I would have been like 20, 20, 21. And she gave me this book and this book started to bring up some things. And then she booked me a healing session because it brought up some uncomfortable feelings. And from this healing session,
I remember like this lady, she like had crystals in her everywhere in her house, like every crystal you could ever fucking imagine. And she had purple hair and she was very, she was very kooky and I was a very judgmental young woman. And I was like, yep. And I was like, okay, like what's this witch looking lady going to do? And
Kristi McVee (15:02)
You
20 year old.
Jessica Ella (15:13)
she did this session and we worked on a couple of little things and I left thinking that was a load of shit. There's no way that all that stuff just worked. And two days later I was like, what did she do to my brain? And I was like, and I'm a very logical person. Like I was very like, I always thought my mom was just banging on about all of this stuff and didn't really, you know, it was just a bit woo woo. And so I,
Kristi McVee (15:25)
Hahaha!
Jessica Ella (15:38)
I started researching like obsessively. So I became obsessed with trauma. I became obsessed with what did she do to my brain that day? Like, I know that it's called energy healing, but like, what is energy? What's quantum physics? How does it move? How does it work? What's a belief? Where's that stored in your brain? Where's a memory stored? Like I became obsessed. I did multiple different certifications and courses and I was watching every documentary and it just became my absolute obsession. And through this process, I didn't really know.
Kristi McVee (16:04)
Yeah.
Jessica Ella (16:08)
why I was so obsessed, but obviously I was just trying to heal myself. was trying to get all the tools and when I did finally sort of, we'll call it like unlock what actually it takes to heal on all levels, I started to work on and uncover and get more and more of these traumatic memories coming. Cause a lot of them were repressed and I'd have snippets of these flashbacks, but I wouldn't really know what was happening. And then my brain started to unlock them and I,
fortunately had all these tools. I like I cracked the code. knew how to heal. So I started one memory at a time, one belief at a time, one negative thought at a time, one emotion, you know, one trigger at a time working through all of these hundreds of traumas. And so it's been, it's been a journey. I'm not going to say it's easy when you've got a lot of trauma, but it's possible. And to the point now where I just told you all of that and there's no nothing happening.
Kristi McVee (16:54)
I did.
Physical
response, yeah.
Jessica Ella (17:04)
nothing, like just doesn't even feel, it just, it just happened.
Kristi McVee (17:08)
Yeah, I mean, and that takes a lot of energy and a lot of work. Like that's not something that you did overnight. It's not something that you just click your fingers and it happens. It takes going deep and diving deep into the darks of the of the well, there's a whole lot of wooroo's sayings in this, you know, the dark side of the soul and all of these other things that we've all heard when we've gone to like into any of this, but it does take a lot of energy and it takes like you need to want it.
Jessica Ella (17:29)
Yeah.
You do. And I've always had that part of like, you know, I remember when I first started, started healing from some of the bigger stuff and I was reading on like Reddit chats and things like father, daughter, sexual abuse, how do you heal from it? And everywhere that I read, it was like, it's not possible. You just learn how to exist with it. It'll always affect you in some way. And I just had this part of my brain that was like, absolutely not, absolutely not having it, not having it. I'll find a way. I will do it until I die. Like I will find.
Kristi McVee (17:56)
with them.
Yeah.
Jessica Ella (18:07)
a way that we can hear from this so that it doesn't, because what happened to you then should not determine how your life is now. And I just refuse to believe that that could affect you for the rest of your life. And that was, you know, that was all you could ever then experience. I was like, no, want it to be different.
Kristi McVee (18:24)
Yeah, and I guess from my perspective, you know, I've seen victims of child sexual abuse in late adulthood and like they've lived 40 years with these secrets and these feelings and like, you know, especially, you know, men who
in their middle age have like, you know, not had been able to have a full relationship with their children because of their sexual abuse, because they've struggled to like reconcile or they've been scared about the fact that they might abuse their children because they've been told that their abuser was a victim of child sexual abuse. you know, so like the fact is, is that it really does affect your whole life if you don't do what you need to do to get clean, clear on it. Right. And you said it, you said it yourself, the actual
sexual acts aren't always the most traumatic part of it. It's everything around that that creates this horrible feelings, horrible beliefs, like values. All of a sudden you're not sure who you are. It's dictated to you by your abuser.
Jessica Ella (19:14)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (19:30)
So, know, that's what a lot of and I've heard that time and time again. It's not you're not the first person to say that it's yeah, no, you're not. It's and I saw that in my own ⁓ interviews and in my own experiences talking to victims, survivors of the fact that, you know, like.
Jessica Ella (19:35)
That's good.
Kristi McVee (19:47)
the actual sexual abuse was easy to deal with and the fact that no one believed them and no one listened to them and no one gave them the support they needed in the moment that they came forward or that they disclosed. mean, in your case, you would have been petrified to say something. You would have been terrified. Now, I've got a few questions if you don't mind me asking them.
Jessica Ella (20:02)
Yeah. Yeah.
far away.
Kristi McVee (20:09)
So you talk about the fact that obviously you share that you you were tortured by your grandparent, your grandfather and your father when you told your father. Was your father still abusing you at that age?
Jessica Ella (20:22)
Not that I can recall, don't think, like, I hadn't really had any memory sort of from like, like 12. So I don't think that he was. And what's interesting with that day too, what I like really took away from that memory was that, like I had, I had ran, it was the first time in my life where I was actually able to run. I opened the door and I saw them and I had a quick stocktake of what was going on in the room and I ran and normally I would freeze. And my father chased me and I remember him
saying to me like, I'm so sorry. Like, I don't want to do this to you. I'm really sorry, but I have to do this. you've got to come back into the room and him dragging me back in. And then at moments throughout it, him saying like, stop, I just remember him saying, stop, stop, you're going to kill her. Like, you need to stop, you're going to kill her. And being really concerned and like continually me begging to him and him being like, I'm sorry, but I have to. And it just gave me this perspective and understanding of even as an adult,
Kristi McVee (21:13)
Wow.
Jessica Ella (21:16)
has like a fully grown, quite dangerous, scary man, to be honest. Like he's involved in things that he should not be involved in. A very feared man in my local area. And he was so afraid of his own dad who was an old man now. So like that trauma really left an imprint of fear on him that was probably at that point, just a perception. Like.
He could have probably taken his dad on wanted to, but he was still that little boy inside afraid of his dad who had obviously abused him. So it gave me this understanding of like, how we can still be that little boy or that little girl inside and feel completely powerless to somebody when we're not technically anymore. And that's what I've been able to take back. Like I can speak and you know, there is a part of me that's like, he could come for me. He could kill me and that would be unfortunate, but like,
Kristi McVee (21:37)
Yeah. Please. Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Well, you can't live your life in that space, can you?
Jessica Ella (22:08)
No, and I feel like actually healing through all of that made me realize that he's probably just as scared of me as I am of him, like a spider.
Kristi McVee (22:16)
Yeah, right. It's so interesting that you put it that way because I think
And my experience with, you know, offenders, child sexual abuse offenders, they are scared of their victims because even though, you know, they had the power in that relationship or in that situation or those all those incidences like where something's happened, they actually have a lot to fear because their freedom and their anonymity and their because I mean, they're basically wearing a mask everywhere they go. They're this, this, this person underneath that is abusing children,
Jessica Ella (22:46)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (22:50)
attracted to children, whatever it is, and then they're pretending to be something else to everyone else. So it's only going to take saying it to the right person, that child saying it to the right person to take all of that away, technically.
Jessica Ella (22:55)
Yeah. Yeah. Stay wearing them on.
Yeah. And that's,
that's such a good narrative flip to like what I was just thinking when you said that was like, we feel powerless because they made us feel powerless, but we actually are the ones who hold the power because we have the secret that they want no one to know about. have the power to speak up and to expose them for what they are. And that's what they're the most afraid of actually having to even face that in themselves. So we think we're powerless, but we actually are the ones who hold the power.
Kristi McVee (23:32)
Yeah, and that's the trick that they, that's the cards they hold, right? They pretend. And it's interesting because, I I, a lot of child sexual abusers are narcissistic in nature and they use narcissism as a way to control, right? So, you know, like the power is with, like you said, you know, they're holding so many cards and juggling so many balls and trying to lie to so many people. And it just takes one person pulling that domino and the whole lot falls over.
The only way they continue to hold that power is when people feel like they can't speak up and people don't know that they can speak up. I mean, you know, I would have been, if I was in your situation, I wouldn't have been saying anything, no way, because you were terrified. Fire out, man. And my other question that I had was, I know that your mum didn't know for a long time.
Jessica Ella (24:14)
Especially not in the world.
Kristi McVee (24:23)
what was going on, you know, when she did find out or when it did come to light, what was that like for you?
Jessica Ella (24:23)
Hmm.
told her, I was 30 when I told her, so she said to me, she actually responded quite well. She said, I find this so difficult to believe and wrap my head around, but I believe you. I a hundred percent believe you, but this is like shocking and really difficult to, to understand. She's like, I knew he was bad. Like she left him for many reasons. Hey, you know, we talked about like profiling, like he was addicted to porn. He was cheating all of the time. He was narcissistic, emotionally abusive.
very physically abusive, domestic violence. Like he was this perfect little, perfect little profile. Yeah. And she was like, I knew he was a bad, this is a really important message. I knew he was a really bad person, but I thought he was a good dad because on the outside he made it look like he was dad of the year, super dad. And that I was his shit mother. And he would, he would say bad things to us about her. She's pathetic, she's weak, she doesn't love you. You know, all of these things to sort of pit us against her.
Kristi McVee (25:02)
He was wearing all of the things. He was into everything.
human.
Jessica Ella (25:28)
And then from the outside world, like my dad was a very good looking, charismatic man. And he looked like, you know, and he was then had this edge of being feared by certain people in the community. Yeah. Right.
Kristi McVee (25:40)
So was Ted Bundy. Like,
like, like if we want to laugh about it, like so was Ted Bundy. And that's why he was able to like lure in that like they're like that, you know, what's that insect that lures in things looking pretty and then eats them.
Jessica Ella (25:54)
Yes,
yes. It's well, it's it's hard. Like this is brutal, but like it's harder to, you know, convince people and be charismatic if you are hideous. Like people are not going to, people, yeah, people are not going to trust you. Like there's people that people look at and go, they look like a pedophile. Actually, pedophiles don't look like what you think they look like. Pedophiles often look very different. But so she was like, you know, she said he put out this perception of like, he was so protective of you guys and he was really
Kristi McVee (26:04)
or you have bad hygiene.
Yeah.
Jessica Ella (26:23)
like, you know, was defensive and always had a big say in your child and things in your childhood. And he just like, you know, placed himself as dad of the year. And so she wouldn't have expected that as all. She actually had this narrative in her mind of he actually became so much of a more present dad and actually became a better dad when we got divorced. It was a good thing that we got divorced. Whereas now she was like, ⁓ he just
Kristi McVee (26:48)
That
was a control thing, I think. That was more about control and that keeping that narrative so that he could keep, like, so you guys wouldn't say anything.
Jessica Ella (26:57)
Absolutely. And he just, he just is that way. Like, you know, you said narcissistic people, like that these people often are narcissistic and narcissistic people really care about what other people think about them. So they have to uphold a certain perception, but they also view people as objects, not as human beings. And so it's easier for them to abuse because they own you, you're their child. So they own you. It's not like I love you because you're my child. It's like, you're my property. And so I'll do what I want with you. So it's like,
Kristi McVee (27:16)
Yes.
Jessica Ella (27:27)
Yeah, there was that behind closed.
Kristi McVee (27:28)
I see that
a lot in parents who abuse their children, whether it be physical, mental, neglect, you know, all of those things. ⁓ It's about the, you're not an individual.
Jessica Ella (27:38)
Mm, you're my child.
Kristi McVee (27:38)
you're, you're, you're, you're my
property, you're and when I talk about safe parents, safe adults, or even like sometimes I see it in grandparents, like grandparents to grandchildren or grandparents to their own children, like parents to their own adult children, like, how dare you even talk back at me or tell me I was like, didn't treat you right? You know, I you know, and like, so it's very complex, but it's also very simple in that when you see these behaviors, they're a big red flag, right?
Jessica Ella (27:46)
Y'all.
Yeah. And I think as well, like there's how they treat it in the home and then there's how they treat it outside in public. And I often notice that people that I know, not just my father, but other people who are, who are predators, who are sexual, sexually abusive to children, they are more concerned about the way that their children look to other people out in public than how their child's actually feeling. So they'll be like, don't do that. You're making me look like this. You're making me look like this. And that's like, obviously not.
Kristi McVee (28:13)
Yes, I
Yes.
Yes.
Jessica Ella (28:36)
not everyone who does that is a predator, but they very focused on on
Kristi McVee (28:39)
But they're abusive no matter what because if they're more
concerned about what people see and perceive them as, then their actual child's emotions and feelings and they're putting it onto their child, there's some form of abuse and neglect going on.
Jessica Ella (28:53)
100%.
Kristi McVee (28:53)
So
I think and it's interesting you bring that up because one of the things that I teach in my presentations, especially to like professionals who work with children and they're dealing with like the parents. I'm like when any parent disregards their child's feelings or disregards their child's well-being, doesn't want them to see a psychologist or get support or you know, all of those things, then that is a massive red flag that there's some form of abuse going on in the background or neglect going on because
They don't want their child to be able to have a voice.
Jessica Ella (29:26)
Absolutely. My mum sent me to a psychologist when I was nine because she was like, cause I was having rage issues and get out of this. And my dad found out after a couple of sessions and like forbid me from going, canceled it. She doesn't need that shit. She not going to that took me out of it because he didn't want me to get that help. He didn't want me to potentially disclose to somebody. people that are, yeah, a hundred percent people I have personal experience with that. is a big red flag.
Kristi McVee (29:32)
No wonder. No wonder.
Yep.
Thank you.
Yeah, massive red flag. also ⁓ with that same thought, you know, if it's because they're trying, it doesn't necessarily always mean child sexual abuse, but I see it a lot with family court, right? So if there's been some sort of emotional, psychological neglect abuse in the family home with the mother or with the children and the it's going through family court and they block family court, they block any kind of support for the child. Like any person who's going through a divorce or a relationship
need help, needs support, needs someone to talk to, not necessarily their parents because their parents aren't always going to be the right people, right? And they don't always react properly. So, you know, but I see it all the time in family court that the one parent that is possibly the abuser is actually the one that's blocking any kind of support and the family court go along with it. And I'm like, how the fuck are we meant to, like, when did we stop caring about what kids
Jessica Ella (30:43)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (30:49)
need. But anyway, that's a whole nother podcast episode. Let's not go there. Let's not go there.
Jessica Ella (30:50)
Yum. Oh, was just about to say, don't even get me started on the court system. Don't even get me started. like, I will make my
blood boil. That's why we wrote the book because I was like, what can we do to actually help that isn't me burning establishments to the ground?
Kristi McVee (31:07)
Don't worry, I don't say this very often, but and because we do need them. But sometimes I'll be quoted as saying I don't trust the police. And I was a police officer for 10 years. And that's not because like there's not great people trying to do their jobs and like all of that stuff. But it's because the systems aren't made to support people. They're not made to help people. And
For some people, through the reporting their abuse and going through the court systems is what they need or think they need. And that is totally fine. But it's not always going to give you the outcome you want or the resolution or that feeling of I have actually got justice because there's no justice in the justice system. It's a system. So, yeah.
Jessica Ella (31:48)
Yeah.
No, especially when
like, find like, especially when it's within the family, because it's like, as we've talked about when you came on my podcast, like, there's so many barriers to a child actually making that statement and testifying against a parent or a grandparent. And it just, the whole case just relies on a system that doesn't really work for like, intra like family. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (32:12)
And you're intrafamiliar. Yeah.
I actually was on a, I did some alert.
training earlier in the week and it was for like it was for lawyers, right? So it family court lawyers and it was with the Martin Power who is the leading expert in Australia on child interviewing. So she's the leading expert. She's who we I learned off of like her program, her thing. And she was saying that and then they had an American guy on who was talking about why children free camp. So take back their disclosure.
Jessica Ella (32:45)
Hmm
Kristi McVee (32:45)
And two factors, two factors stand in the way of a child. First of all, because recantation when a child says, no, it didn't happen like that or I don't know what you're talking about after they've disclosed recantation. Most of the time we assume that the child has lied about the initial offence or initial disclosure. And so what he said is two factors go into why kids recant and why kids
Jessica Ella (32:56)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Kristi McVee (33:12)
you know, take back their disclosure. And the first one was, is that they don't so intra filial, it was filial relationships. So if it's someone in the family that they love, like a family, like a parent, or a grandparent or someone close a brother or sister, whoever, the filial relationship is the first factor that if if it's a family member, it's higher risk of revoking that disclosure. The second one
was their relationship with their mother or their most supportive person. So if the mother isn't supportive of the child when they give the disclosure and doesn't support the child, there's more likelihood of being revoked and taken back. if it's a parents and a lot of cases, especially with parents being the perpetrator, so like a father or a stepfather, for instance, then it's going to have a higher risk and the mother's not supportive of the child.
they've got a more higher risk of actually refocusing.
Jessica Ella (34:11)
And mothers
can become like mothers can find it difficult and not even realize that they're doing it, but not be supportive in those situations because the chance of that mother being in a relationship with that father or stepfather that is also abusive where they feel trapped and they actually can't leave and their survival depends on this person. It's like their brain, their brain, their brain can't comprehend that that could be true because then they'd have to do something like leave that person. And then that could like, so the brain
Kristi McVee (34:31)
Yeah, big, big factor.
saying that
alone.
Jessica Ella (34:41)
shuts,
brain just shuts out that information and they're not meaning to be not supportive, but it like, but it comes out that way. But yeah, definitely like the parental, parental abuse, like, you know, people say to me, what do you wish someone had have said to you back then? And like we've wrote the book from the perspective of, was like, okay, here's everything I would have needed to know. The, like all my objections would have been like, what's going to happen to him. And, I love him. And, and, know, but everyone's like, what could someone say to you for you to come forward? And it's like,
Kristi McVee (34:49)
Okay, yeah.
Jessica Ella (35:10)
nothing. I loved him and I didn't want him to go to jail. And I was terrified of him. So that's that again, like you would know from reading our book, that's why it's so specific in that book of like sometimes the person abusing you is someone that you love and trust and it might be someone in your family and it can be so confusing when somebody that you love is also the person that's hurting you. But telling isn't about getting them into trouble, it's about keeping you safe and
Kristi McVee (35:12)
I know, and I've heard that time and time again.
Yep.
Jessica Ella (35:36)
Those lines were like, gives me goosebumps when I think about it because those lines, I was like, that's what they need to know. That's what they need to know when it comes to the family abuse. and that's the only thing that could have maybe made me go, okay, hold on a minute.
Kristi McVee (35:51)
Yeah.
And also I think some of the messaging that we need to make sure that we share with kids or with family members or friends or whoever, what happens to you is not your fault because it actually you're not choosing for this to happen. However, I know like you've shared with me, you know, there was times when you were petrified of your dad. And so, you know, you were trying to make him feel better, but that was also how you were groomed as a child. Like the difference is, that just because a child goes along with the abuse or
Jessica Ella (36:16)
Yes.
Kristi McVee (36:21)
or technically allows it if they want of a better way, doesn't mean that they're children.
Jessica Ella (36:28)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (36:29)
There's a and there's never like, it pisses me off to the nth degree. When it's a child, the adult should always be the one who's protecting the child. The adult should always be the one who doesn't do the thing that harms the child. You know, there's there is there's a choice. There's a choice to do it and not do it. And so but yeah, like I know that, you know, talking to victims.
Jessica Ella (36:43)
Absolutely, on them. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (36:52)
when I was still interviewing kids and there was victims that I talked to who were like, it was the only way to make my dad stop yelling or it was the only way I knew that it made him happy. And here's the thing about kids and you'll probably be able to like reiterate this, kids just want their families to love them and to be safe and to they don't want they will protect their parent or they protect their siblings or they'll protect whoever they need to protect. And if that means putting them
their bodies and their lives in front of the other person, then they will.
Jessica Ella (37:26)
And it's not even a want, it's like a need. It's like we require this person for survival. Like they're our caregiver, we need them to survive. They look after us, they meet all of our like human needs for shelter and food and water and everything. I'm not gonna go against this person because then I'm gonna risk my life and my actual survival. Even if they're not threatening it, there's this unconscious knowing of like, I need this person to survive, they're my whole world.
And so I'm going to protect them at all costs. And I think that's where, you know, when I read the book to my boys, say to them, you know, what do you think would happen to somebody who does that? And they're like, they'll go to jail. I'm like, yeah, they would. also like the person, like you, you can choose what you want to happen to them. You can choose what you want to happen to them. And if you don't want to make a statement, you don't have to make a statement. You can just stop seeing that person or you can, and I described to them different scenarios of what could happen.
if that was to happen, because I know that for me, I knew very early that my dad would go to jail. So it was like, don't want, I'm not going to lose my dad. So I'm not going to tell. But if someone had said to me, yeah, did you know that, ⁓ pedophiles actually, there's like a health program and they go away and they get better. you know, like if someone had to say that to me, I would have been like, that could be a good option. So I'm going to think about like what their, what their fear is, but yeah, it's definitely.
Kristi McVee (38:41)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And not every child wants it. I've been on social saying this, not every victim wanted as a child. Sometimes, as an adult, you go through adult and you start thinking from an adult perspective. as a child, most children just want it to stop.
Jessica Ella (39:10)
They don't want that person cut out of their life. They're afraid of losing them. So, but they want the, yeah.
Kristi McVee (39:13)
Yeah, I mean,
it's hard to I mean, you've probably done the work and we'll go on to what you do now and how you how you program and what how you help people but I guess from the perspective of like the child mind is that they just want them to get help or just want them to stop they just want to be their loving parent because all most people want is love right? But when it becomes when you start forming those adult
Jessica Ella (39:32)
He's not loved. Yep.
Kristi McVee (39:39)
feelings and beliefs and then you realise how badly these persons hurt you and how badly that how they shouldn't have done it and you know they they had a choice not to do it but they chose that and you know all of the things that probably go through and then the anger starts because you're angry at them for ruining your life or you're angry at them for taking away your innocence or you're angry at the people around you who didn't protect you so it it form it doesn't start that way a lot of the time because an innocent child just loves their parent I mean I didn't grow up
with child sexual abuse, but I had neglect and emotional and psychological abuse. And I just loved my parents and I just wanted them to love me. And I think, so I can kind of relate, but obviously not. And I just remember thinking at 15 and 14, when I was like, again, know, like all of this emotional stuff, does play on you when you're told that you're not, you know, you're a bitch and you're selfish and you're this and you're that, and you're called names all the time. You start, you as a child take on that.
Jessica Ella (40:17)
Mm.
Kristi McVee (40:36)
And you believe that because no one's telling you that you're amazing. And so, you know, like I just remember, you know, not wanting to be there anymore and wanting it to end as a teenager. then.
It just gets to the point where you like think, well, what's the point of me being here? Like no one wants me or it's easier not to be here. I mean, like you, I had this knowing inside of me that it wasn't going to be who I was. was better. There was more. There was more. I just kept thinking there was more. But it's as a child, don't have until someone says or someone really like, I guess changes that narrative for us. And if we don't
Jessica Ella (40:55)
Hmm.
You don't have it?
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (41:16)
don't have
it, you just know what you've been told.
Jessica Ella (41:19)
There's that saying, I don't know who said it, but it's like when you are abusive towards your children and unkind towards your children, they don't stop loving you, they stop loving themselves. So it's like, it's that typical example and the less that they love themselves, the more they tolerate from you and the more they continue to blame themselves and hate themselves. And then it just gets worse and worse. you just, you think that everybody hates you and that everything that everybody does is your, like everything's your fault.
Kristi McVee (41:28)
Yeah, I know.
Hi, everyone.
Jessica Ella (41:47)
you can't really detach from that. yeah, it definitely, it's quite detrimental, like parental abuse specifically, because, you know, I think like, if it's an uncle or even like with my grandfather, like I didn't have to see him that often and I didn't rely on him for survival. Whereas I find that a lot of the people that I work with that, that is the most complex to sort of untangle is when it was a parent who they couldn't escape and who they relied on for survival. It's like,
betrayal of Shulman. It's the most ultimate betrayal.
Kristi McVee (42:17)
Yeah. And then you
think you think parents are meant to love their kids, right? They're not meant to hurt them. And, you know, I don't know, I make this joke and it isn't it isn't a joke, but I make it when I talk to people. I'm like, you know, when you're holding your baby, when after they're first born and you're looking at this tiny little newborn and you're thinking, my gosh, they're so precious and I'm going to protect you forever. And then we don't think I'm going to fuck you right up like.
Jessica Ella (42:43)
No.
Kristi McVee (42:43)
I'm just gonna do everything to fuck your life up. We forget that that new little newborn that we promised we would protect is who we need to keep protecting every day until they don't need us anymore.
Jessica Ella (42:54)
Yeah, it's when they start to get a bit older and then they trigger us and they're starting to mirror our own behaviors back to us because they're speaking the way that we speak and like then we get triggered by our own shadows and the shit we haven't dealt with and then we're like, then yeah, vicious cycle. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (42:59)
No.
Yeah, I know. Tell me about it. I'm going straight through this right now with my poor teenager who's dealing with me and
I'm dealing with her. But yeah, so I guess when where did you get to where you like you started at 2021, like trying to go through your trauma and trying to heal but you didn't start on that path. But that's where it led you. I guess from here, I mean, you one of the I guess, for a lot of parents or people listening, they might go, how did you not like report them?
Jessica Ella (43:26)
Hmm.
Kristi McVee (43:36)
And you haven't, you haven't reported. You've healed yourself and got on with your life and left it. Oh, okay.
Jessica Ella (43:40)
Well, I did. ⁓
I actually went through like a justice vengeance phase of lot of anger. And yeah, I got together because I wasn't the only one. Once I came forward, my brother came forward. My sister's pretty sure it would have happened to her too. She's just very like got chronic dissociation. And then actually one of my cousins came forward. She heard me speak on a podcast and she messaged me and said,
that my dad had raped her when she was nine. and that's like who's come forward so far. But yeah, I can't remember where I was going with that. My brain just, my brain just lost it. Yes, so I did. So then I went to, ⁓ yeah, so I made, spent days making statements and the police actually like they took my brother's statements, my cousin's and they were gonna take the case on. So they said like,
Kristi McVee (44:09)
my.
that you went on the anger vengeance and you were like, yes, I will.
Jessica Ella (44:31)
you know, we believe you will take, we'll take on the case. even though was a historic case, the historic cases are far more complex as you would know and hard to get a conviction for because it's like he said, she said, there's no like physical evidence. It's in happening right now. Yeah. and so, yeah, so I went down that path and it was probably like nine months of them investigating. and right before he was about to be arrested, the,
Kristi McVee (44:44)
Not usually.
Jessica Ella (44:55)
My, my detective changed over. So I lost the detective that hadn't, I got a new detective and the new detective was very much like, are you sure you want to do this? You live quite close to him. He's pretty scary guy. And the other detective had said to me, I remember him specifically saying there's pedophiles that are just like creepy dudes that are stupid and do the wrong thing. And then there's this other type of person and your dad is that other type of person. He is bad to the bone and he was.
Kristi McVee (45:04)
We'll tune out of it.
Jessica Ella (45:24)
He was like, he came and checked at me on me at my house one day when I didn't answer my phone. Like he was very caring and he was very concerned for me, which was very nice. ⁓ so he was a really good one, but yeah, this other guy kind of took over and he really scared me. He was like, I noticed that you speak publicly about it. Like you would have to take everything down. You wouldn't be able to keep public speaking. might affect your business, but also, you know, you're living on your own. was just left living on your own at the moment. And you know, are you willing to take that risk?
Kristi McVee (45:32)
Yeah.
I mean,
he might have been coming from a fear or like from a concern of your wellbeing because of who your father is. But also, where was the empowerment in any of that? Like, this is your decision and you get to choose how this goes. Like, these are the risks, let's consider them, but this is your choice ultimately.
Jessica Ella (46:00)
Absolutely.
Yeah, not much.
Yeah, well, I he finished with that, but it was a lot of like fear hungry. I also I also had gotten to the point, though, where I'd I'd I'd I'd left my ex husband and I was feeling really good, like I was feeling really powerful and really free. And I think I right before it happened, I just met my now fiancee, Gav. And I was like, do I actually want to go through years of court and
Kristi McVee (46:17)
He talked you out of it. Honestly, he talked you out of it.
And you made it.
Jessica Ella (46:42)
fearing him and fearing if he's gonna come for me and do I actually wanna do this process? What does justice mean to me? What is justice? And then I was like, you know what? I've healed, I help other people around the world. I'm one of the very few people that speaks publicly about father, daughter, sexual abuse. And so I'm having conversations with women all around the world and I'm getting to help them and guide them. I don't actually feel like I have that much anger towards him now. I feel quite neutral.
Why am I still doing this? Why don't I just spend the next six years? Why don't I spend the next six years or however long a case would take embracing life and living my best life, not in spite of him, but kind of like, have no effect on me. I don't even need to take you to court. I'm gonna tell the whole world what you did, but I'm gonna do it from a place of, I want everybody to know that what their fathers did to them or what any person did to them doesn't define them and doesn't have to define them.
Kristi McVee (47:17)
Yeah.
Jessica Ella (47:37)
And that they can take that power back by speaking up or not publicly necessarily, but telling somebody and by actually, no, you don't have to speak. I wouldn't recommend it. mean, it is good. Like it is good sometimes, but it's, um, it is like, it's a, it's a big thing as well, because there is an element always of it's still a part of your life. Like I could have just gone and gone on with, gone on my merry way and you know, how to heal women with.
Kristi McVee (47:42)
Yeah, you don't have to go on podcasts to get your power back. I know.
without.
Jessica Ella (48:07)
low
self-confidence or, you know, like I could have just gone in a different direction and had nothing to do with it. But I felt this pull of like, I kind of want to go back for all those women that just have no idea that it's actually possible to heal, not just from father daughter abuse, but sexual abuse in general, because it's, it's, it's everywhere and so many women are carrying it. Yeah. And the messaging is like, that's really, it's really shameful. It's a lot. It's really hard to heal. Like you'll always have these issues. And it's like,
Kristi McVee (48:22)
any abuse.
Yeah, it is.
Jessica Ella (48:36)
You actually don't have to. You actually don't.
Kristi McVee (48:40)
That's what I wanted to like.
Because I know that kids are so resilient, right? And I know that if it's dealt with early and it happened like because there's a lot of parents out there that are so fearful of it happening to their children, especially if they are victims, survivors themselves, like if it's happened to them or it's happened to a family member or it's been in their field at some stage and they're like, like that fear, my gosh, it's going to happen to my kids. And then we kind of we're kind of parenting from fear. Right. And I mean, I could have done that. And I did do that at some stages in my own parenting journey with
my own child, you know, whereas I was like, my gosh, you're not allowed to go here, you're not allowed to do this, you know that, but
when I had the tools and I had the clarity to go, yes, it happens a lot, but there's so many things that we can put in place so it doesn't happen. There's so many things that we can teach our kids that so it doesn't happen. I think it's about, you know, stepping back and going the big picture because when you're a victim survivor, you probably and you talk to a lot of people, I talk to a lot of people, it seems like it's happening everywhere and it's happening to everyone. And when I was a detective, I was like,
everyone's a fucking pedophile. Like that's how it felt, right? They're not. When I left, I was like, actually, there's a lot of good people out in the world. Stop thinking everyone's a pedophile. There's a there's a lot, but there's also a lot more that aren't. And so I think from my perspective, I think, and one thing I wanted to talk about was like parenting from like, so that we don't
Jessica Ella (49:47)
Yeah. Yep.
Yep. There's some of those too. Yeah.
Kristi McVee (50:09)
parent from that fearful space of like, it's going to happen to my kids. Because even if it does, we can't promise that it won't happen to our children. There's no promises. No.
Jessica Ella (50:13)
you
You can never know. No, you can never
know 100%. And that's what I think I said to you before we started recording is like, I think what I want people to know as well is that it feels like the worst thing that could ever happen to you if you haven't healed your own trauma, because it's the biggest thing that's happened and it's scary and you're still carrying all that pain. But once you heal it and you know that it can be healed, that fear response gets turned down a little bit because it's like, okay.
it might happen to my kids. I'm going to do everything I can to try and prevent it. But if it does, I know that it can be fixed because the thing that really makes us so afraid is that we think it's a life sentence. We think if that happens to my child, they're never going to recover. They're going to become suicidal. They're going to, it's going to ruin their whole life. And so if we heal it in ourselves and we find evidence that it's possible to heal it, it's like we're giving ourselves a little bit of like control back over something that feels completely out of control because really no matter how
careful you are, it can happen.
Kristi McVee (51:17)
It can happen and it might not be
a parent or it might not be a grandparent or a family member. It could be another child in the playground. It could be another child that they're dating when they're a tween or teen. It could be like the statistics show that it's one in three girls, one in five boys, up to 50 % of peer to peer or child on child abuse. But we can also do a lot to help.
Jessica Ella (51:24)
Exactly.
Kristi McVee (51:42)
mitigate, reduce harm and then if it happens there's a lot we can do just within ourselves and within our families to make sure that it's not a lasting effect and it doesn't affect the rest of their life.
Jessica Ella (51:53)
And I think
that starts with understanding what trauma actually is, like not just sexual trauma, but what a trauma actually is at a base level so that you can actually understand, it's actually, there's a method to healing a trauma. A trauma is an open memory. So it's like, if you think about like memories where you're like, oh yeah, I went to, I don't know why this came to my mind, but like Luna Park when I was seven and we went on this ride, like you think about it and you know that that happened in the past cause you're like referencing it.
Whereas, and that's a closed off explicit memory that's stored in certain part of your brain. Whereas trauma is, like to call it like an open memory. So when it's activated, when you're triggered into remembering that moment, sometimes you don't even have to consciously remember the moment either. It might just be that you're feeling a certain way and you don't know why, but it's open. And so what it means is that it's like an open wound. And every time you get, you think about it, those emotions and those feelings and those responses come.
Kristi McVee (52:30)
Mm-hmm.
Thank
Jessica Ella (52:50)
come back up because it's not closed off and your brain doesn't actually know that that happened then and this is now. so the way that I know it doesn't know the difference because the timekeeper part of your brain and your prefrontal cortex actually goes offline when you're triggered. So when it goes offline, which means that your timekeeper of like, this is now and that's then and that's there, it gets blurred and it feels like then is now. So when people say like,
Kristi McVee (52:58)
It doesn't know the difference.
Jessica Ella (53:18)
or know, the past is the past. It's actually fucking not at all because when you triggered the past is in the present because your brain doesn't know any different. So we have to figure out what like to close off the memories and the recipe, if you will, to closing a memory is to safely feel the emotions that you didn't get to feel in the moment, to move your body and like regulate your nervous system whilst you're doing this, but to move your body in the way that it didn't get to move and that it wanted to move.
Kristi McVee (53:45)
Eight nights.
Jessica Ella (53:47)
to say the things that you wanted to say, to do the things that you wanted to do, and to give that child what they needed in the moment, whether that was safety, love, protection, whatever it is. So it's a combination of doing all of those things whilst in a theta brainwave, which is like the lichen to a hypnotic brainwave, doing all of that whilst in a theta brainwave. So saying the words you need to say, moving the body the way that needs to go, you do all of that together.
And you take the child, you you come in as your adult self and you take that child out of that moment or out of that memory and you take them to a safe place and you say to them all the beautiful things that you say to children that come to you and you say, you're protected now and I'm here for you and I love you and I'm going to look after you and all the things. They, two days later, two days to two weeks later, they can think about that memory and they have no reaction to it. And you don't have to work on each memory multiple times just once per memory if you do it right. And so.
Kristi McVee (54:40)
Yeah, the right recipe.
Jessica Ella (54:43)
the right recipe and then it's explicit. It's moved from implicit meaning that it's in your body and it's in like sensory reaction to explicit and the definition there is like an implicit memory is the day you learn to ride a, sorry, an explicit memory is the day you learn to ride a bike. An implicit memory is the memory in your body that allows you to jump on a bike today and ride it without thinking. Trauma is implicit, which means that often we don't have this like visual of what the trauma.
was like we're not having flashbacks all the time, but we hear a certain word or go to a certain place and our body reacts as if we're back in that moment. Once you do that and you fix that memory and you store it away as explicit, you can go to a place that you know used to trigger you and you're like, this is where that thing happened and you can still recall it.
Kristi McVee (55:19)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, there's no physical
response.
Jessica Ella (55:37)
No physical response. And actually what's really interesting is a lot of the time people will feel when they, when they revisit it, they'll will feel the way that they felt that we implanted in the session. So if they felt protected and safe and loved, they'll feel those feelings when they recall it. So it's, it's really powerful. And this is why I'm saying like, it's, you know, if you've got one or two big traumas that have happened.
Kristi McVee (55:54)
It's massively powerful.
Jessica Ella (56:02)
It's very rapid. do one session on those two memories and your life has turned upside down. But if you've got hundreds of memories and the abuse was constant and ongoing, it's just going to take time to work through them. But the method is the same. I mean, there's lots of other things, methods that we use, but really that's the key components there. So what I always think about is what makes the memory stay open? Like why does some stay open and why does some not?
Kristi McVee (56:08)
Yeah, it's going to take time.
Jessica Ella (56:28)
they stay open because the level of emotion was more than what the child could comprehend. They couldn't discharge, they couldn't regulate, so the emotion was sort of trapped, if you will, and they couldn't understand what was happening. Confusion is the number one thing that creates trauma. It's like, why is this happening if they don't understand? And they create a narrative in that moment about what they think at their age with their level of awareness is happening. And normally that's quite...
Kristi McVee (56:34)
Yes.
Jessica Ella (56:55)
a wrong decision that they've made. Like it's, it's about them. They make it about themselves because children are completely egocentric. Yeah, they're designed that way. And so they, this confusion is what, is what really stores it as a trauma. So what I always think about is in order to avoid trauma, if my children go through something that I'm aware of, that I think might be traumatic,
Kristi McVee (57:00)
that's what we're doing.
Jessica Ella (57:18)
I'm always over explaining so that they're never confused and that they've got the narrative that I want them to have, the positive narrative, not the negative one, but also so it doesn't leave it open and allowing them if they have an experience where they've got big emotions to feel those emotions and also for me to make them to feel safe and loved and reminding them you're loved, I love you no matter what, you're safe with me, you're always safe, you're always protected, safety, love, protection and.
Kristi McVee (57:21)
Yes.
Yeah, so doesn't leave it open.
Jessica Ella (57:46)
busting that confusion. Now all of a sudden, if your child comes to you and tells you that something's happened, you've got this recipe for how to sort of help them to move through that because you know that that's what causes trauma. you, for me, I always say to moms like, you can't over explain anything if you think your kid's going through a traumatic situation, talk to them about it and explain and explain and make sure that they understand. And if they look confused, like, I don't know what you just told me, have a deeper conversation. Don't just leave them confused about anything.
Kristi McVee (58:16)
Yeah, ask them questions like...
What part are you struggling? Is there anything you're struggling with? What part would you like me to try and explain differently? I think also one thing that I've realised because I've had a lot of questions recently about, my child doesn't want to engage in body safety conversations with me and then they're struggling. I'm struggling to get them to sit down and talk to me. And I'm like, OK, well, how does your child learn? And they're like, what do you mean? And I'm like, well, are they a chatty Cathy? Like, do they like to have a chat? Well, if they're a chatty Cathy, they're probably an auditory learner. If they're a child that
likes to like is hands-on like they are really hands-on kids that want to do everything with their hands and their kinesthetic learning so they'll you know use dolls and toys to help them learn or so or kick a ball or do something whilst you're that conversation because whilst they're moving they're learning and then the other one is is if they're a visual learner use books read a book to them because they need to see it on like they need to visually see what you're trying to talk to them about
Jessica Ella (59:17)
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (59:17)
So
I think with that is so important. So teach how you learn, how they learn.
Jessica Ella (59:21)
how that, yeah.
And also I would argue that a lot of those parents are uncomfortable having the conversation because people, it's a projection and they're probably awkward with the conversation and children can feel what we're feeling. So if we're like coming into the room with like a racing heart and we feel shame and we feel like a bit icky around the subject and we're like, ⁓ I want to talk to you about this thing. And they're going to be like, get away from me. Like, no, no,
Kristi McVee (59:30)
Yeah, it's probably coming off pretty awkwardly.
Yeah.
Hey, you're freaking out. Why? It's something to freak out about. You're freaking out. Yeah. Well, I mean, like, I definitely didn't have those issues because I was talking to kids all the time. and, and, but, you know, if I ever felt really weirded out or awkward about a conversation, always pre, I you preference, preface, preface it. I always said something beforehand, like, hey, I've never had this conversation before, or, this is really awkward for me. No one taught me this. And just like letting you know that I might be a bit fumbly, but
Jessica Ella (59:51)
Is it your life?
Yes.
Yeah.
Kristi McVee (1:00:20)
we'll get there in the end like if you need to you know correct me on anything or if I if I thought I'd stuffed it up I'd be like hey I think I fucked up like probably or I think I stuffed up like I should have talked to you about this before this and I mean I use the f-word now with my daughter because that's like her age group I had to prove but when she was little I'd be like hey I think mommy fucked up like she should have said this and told you this before this happened
Jessica Ella (1:00:32)
Yep.
Age appropriate.
made them.
Kristi McVee (1:00:47)
and let's work it out together. Is there anything that's worrying you? And I think that's the truth. You're right. If we're awkward and we're giving off those energy that we don't really know what to say and what... And who knows what to say? It's not a manual. We haven't got a manual.
Jessica Ella (1:00:47)
Yeah.
We'll see what.
Well, think, yeah,
mean, it's getting you saying what you feel comfortable saying too, so that it's delivered in a comfortable way. Like we say on the website and like when people purchase the book, like read it a couple of times yourself so that when it gets to a bit of uncomfortable parts, you kind of just read it like the rest of the book, not uncomfortable. And I had to do the same thing because my son's nine, nearly 10 and I bought a book about ⁓ like the secret boys business and.
I opened it and to be honest, was like, ⁓ my dear lord, so many dicks in here and so many like transition of what the penis is going to look like. like just, yeah, it's so cool. We've got books like that, but I had to like really like get comfortable with the pages so that I was able to, and now like he's so awkward and he doesn't want to read it, but I can sort of.
Kristi McVee (1:01:38)
Who is it we got books like that?
I bet you any
money if it's in his room, he'll be looking at it later when you're not around.
Jessica Ella (1:01:53)
It was already flipped through. Yeah. He told me, he was like, looked at it, mom, it's got stuff.
And he dicks in it. That's where I got it from that. Yeah. He was, but like, I was like, yeah. And you've got one too. Like that's normal. That's what's going to happen to it. Like it's, it's, that's just how it goes. And even sex conversations, even my son, the other day came home and said, mom, I've got a boyfriend. And I was like, who? And he's like, is that what you say? If I say I've got a boyfriend, I'm like, of course.
Kristi McVee (1:02:06)
Yeah.
No.
Aww.
Jessica Ella (1:02:23)
Like, I think that's great. Who's your boyfriend? And I'm like, I love that view. And then he's like, ⁓ would you still love me if I was gay? Would you still love me if I went to jail? Would you still love me if he starts questioning me?
Kristi McVee (1:02:23)
What else am I meant to say?
He's
trying to work out how much it's going to take for you to let him drop him like it's hot.
Jessica Ella (1:02:38)
You
Yeah, but also like, yeah, I've got comfortable with so many difficult conversations and read the book before I pitched it. you know, I knew that I was going to laugh at certain points of that book. So I had to get comfortable with it before so that I could just be like, about it.
Kristi McVee (1:02:48)
Yeah.
yeah, like I remember getting my daughter the girls stuff by Kaz Cook and it's like from eight to 11 year olds or maybe 12 year olds. can't remember now, but I got her the book and again, like there's like pictures of like cartoon pictures of volvers and vaginas and like all of the, you know, this is what's going to happen to your body and this is what's gone through puberty and so cool, such a cool book. And again, like we looked at it together and I was like, I didn't know this about like even now I still learning
stuff about the female anatomy and body that I didn't know because no one talked about it when I was a kid. But how empowering is it to have those conversations and even if it's uncomfortable to go, wow, I didn't know that. Like, I'm learning something here. How cool is this like and making it a bit more fun for both of us.
Jessica Ella (1:03:40)
Yeah.
Yeah. And
it does take that like you being comfortable with it first to, to approach it that way.
Kristi McVee (1:03:50)
can be, or you can
just be goofy and go, wow, didn't know that about. You can just fake it till you make it. Like I used to say to parents, just fake it till you make it. Just all you can do in the moment if something is weeding you out or.
Jessica Ella (1:03:55)
Yeah, true.
Yep.
Kristi McVee (1:04:05)
making you feel awkward. If you're really not sure you can control your face, say, Hey, I'm just going to go to the toilet for five minutes and go get your shit together and come back and say, right, let's get back into it. Because if you need a break to just like get yourself set, then so be it like, Hey, this is really important what we're talking about. I just need to quickly go to toilet because I really need to listen to what we're talking about. And I want to give you my 100 % attention. And that way you can go sort your like go scream into your pillow or whatever you got to do to like get
Jessica Ella (1:04:14)
Hmm.
you
Kristi McVee (1:04:35)
past the the weirdness and then come back with a new mindset of like this is really important then my child really needs me in this moment. ⁓ But I think in everything we've talked about what I got most from what you're saying is is that first of all we can heal from complex trauma.
Jessica Ella (1:04:43)
Yeah, love that. ⁓
Kristi McVee (1:04:56)
And it's really important that we do our best to heal so that we can be the best parents we can be, that we don't parent from a place of fear and that we can reparent ourselves in those moments because that's how we're going to like win, get power back from those abusers and win in these situations. Would you say that's about a good recap of what you've been through?
Jessica Ella (1:05:19)
Absolutely.
Yeah. Absolutely. And I think the thing is like, moms, especially, and I speak mostly to women because my work is with women, but I think moms especially, like the more healing that you can do on yourself, the more you're going to be able to, to, to one notice when it's happening and not, not be blind to it, but also to then on the flip side of that, remove the fear. Because once you have healed through it yourself, you're not going to be as
Kristi McVee (1:05:36)
Yeah, 1000 %
Jessica Ella (1:05:47)
as afraid, like we're always afraid of it happening to our children, but you're not going to be as afraid because you're to be like, all right, if it does happen to my child and they come forward, I'm going to be like, all right, we're going to send you to this lovely lady who's going to help you to process those traumatic memories. And you know, you've got a solution there. think we're afraid of things when we think that there's no, no solution. There's no help.
Kristi McVee (1:06:05)
solution.
And we
also, think most parents are petrified that their child's life's ruined and that there's no hope for them. And some things that I say to parents, especially when it's really young and it's like a one-off event, you know, it might've happened in the kindergarten or it might've happened in their daycare or it might've happened. It's a one-off event. They're protective. They've stopped any contact with the offender or the person who's harmed them. I'm like, you don't realize because you've done all of that, you've actually really helped your child already.
Jessica Ella (1:06:11)
Mm.
Kristi McVee (1:06:34)
and that your child will probably, especially under three like you said, like a lot of memories aren't, you know, they don't remember. But if it's over three and they do remember, all we can do is look, was, never, you know, no one should ever done that to you and it's not your fault. And you're, you know, you're so brave. You were so brave back then. You told me and we were able to make sure that you were safe. So you, you know, and like just remind them that they're safe and they're protected.
Jessica Ella (1:06:43)
there.
Yeah, and I think the hardest part is coming forward. if it need to go.
Kristi McVee (1:07:06)
Sorry, my in-laws have just turned up. Typical. they're going through the garage. Anyway, go on.
Jessica Ella (1:07:08)
Aww.
Yeah, the hardest part for a child is actually to come forward. so for those people that are afraid of it ruining their child's life that it's already happened to, it's like, if you know about it, that's a fucking really good start because there's so many children that are carrying it that haven't told their parents. So you're already doing a good job if they've confided in you. You're already doing...
They're already a step ahead of every other child that is holding the secret. So it's a good place to be if they've told you because they felt safe enough to tell you and they felt safe enough to, to, to release that, I guess. And so that that's actually, that's actually a good place to be.
Kristi McVee (1:07:47)
And when your child tells you and it's because they want you to make them feel safe again, and that's your only job is to make them feel safe again, it doesn't matter about going through the court system or the justice system or getting justice for your child. matters? No.
Jessica Ella (1:07:53)
to protect them.
because that might not feel safe to the child. That might feel
like more trauma.
Kristi McVee (1:08:07)
Yeah, and I'm not saying don't, but be led by the child and be led by the system. I mean, unfortunately, with little kids, we, know, if a child discloses and you're a mandatory report, you got to manage to report all of the things. But what I'm saying is, is that don't think that if you've already done a lot by just supporting your child and you're already doing a really good job by listening, believing them and letting them understand and reminding them that they are safe, because that's all they're looking for in that moment.
Jessica Ella (1:08:08)
Mm.
Yes. And you might want justice, but that might not be what they want or what it looks like for them right now. So it's like, what does your child need? Not to what do you want to do? Like, cause I get people messaging me all the time, like, I'd fucking kill, you know, your dad, if I ever saw him and I'd murder someone, if they ever did this to my kid and just really, you know, a big, big, big feels, is fair. But it's also like, would that be the best thing for your child? Would that be exactly what they needed? Probably not.
Kristi McVee (1:09:02)
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. And I mean, we're in a bit of a rock and a hard place when it comes to child sexual abuse, because there is mandatory reporting in Queensland, for instance, if you're an adult who knows a child's been sexually abused, you actually are legislated to report that to police. But police might not take it anywhere, as we know. And so, so like it's...
Jessica Ella (1:09:19)
Lisa, yeah, you're literally going to
need to report it, but they're not going to do anything about it. ⁓
Kristi McVee (1:09:23)
Maybe not, maybe not. Like
it's a really, really weird space. But we can try our hardest. The main thing is that our kids are protected from the person harming them.
Jessica Ella (1:09:28)
Hmm.
Yep, that's the main goal. Get them out of there.
Kristi McVee (1:09:36)
that's
get them out of there and help them heal so then that it's not going to have long term devastating effects.
Jessica Ella (1:09:43)
And don't avoid
it. Don't avoid the subject because you're uncomfortable about the fact that it happened. Like ask them how they're feeling about it and ask them if they need anything and like don't, don't keep it quiet.
Kristi McVee (1:09:54)
I think the only thing I would say to that is from a police perspective and what I do know from interviewing is that it can be, if you bring the subject up all the time and you're bringing the subject up as in like, ⁓ it can be re-traumatizing if a child has to keep talking to their safe adult who might not be coping with it so well and might be wanting every little bit of information. I always said.
Jessica Ella (1:10:16)
Yeah, not the details.
Not the details, no.
Kristi McVee (1:10:18)
No, no,
they don't. I always used to say to parents, if the child brings it up, then, you know, let them have their let them talk about it, because that's the point of supporting them. But don't go and say, well, tell me again how this happened and tell me again what they did and tell me which unfortunately, when parents are triggered by what's happened to their own child, they can do so. It's really important that we come from a place of where our whole purpose is to support our child through that.
Jessica Ella (1:10:34)
No.
Kristi McVee (1:10:46)
And you know, it can be really hard to do if you're also a victim survivor and you've also been through it yourself because you can't, it can be quite triggering. But I mean, everyone's trying their hardest in this space, I hope, and like making the, trying to do their best.
Jessica Ella (1:10:52)
Being triggered,
Yeah, I think in those situations more from the place of like, you can always talk to me about anything, always let me know how you're feeling. If you ever feel like you're carrying something heavy or there's something you want to say, you can always tell me. You don't have to carry these things alone. More those things. So not like reminding them about the abuse repetitively, but reminding them constantly that you're here for them. You will protect them if they, if they've got any thoughts, if they're ever confused about anything, they can always ask you and you'll help them understand things. So
Kristi McVee (1:11:17)
Yeah.
That was, yeah.
Yeah.
Jessica Ella (1:11:29)
as they grow because they might be like, it's fine when they're four, but when they're seven, they might have start having flashbacks. And if you don't having this conversation of like, you can tell me anything, you can ask me anything, then they're probably not gonna like tell you that having those flashbacks.
Kristi McVee (1:11:43)
True, exactly. that's, mean, from my body safety perspective and from everything that I know is that children just need to know that they can talk to us about anything and it's never going to affect how you love them or what, you know, they shouldn't, they need to know because if we don't remind them, they take on that responsibility all onto their little shoulders and they think that they have to hold it to protect you because a lot of kids will try and protect their parents. ⁓
Jessica Ella (1:12:08)
from their parents'
reactions, yeah.
Kristi McVee (1:12:09)
Yeah. So it's really important that we remind them that we love them and nothing they ever say do or anything otherwise will make you stop loving them and that they can always come to you. Well, this has been an awesome chat, Jess. I really, I feel like we could do 50 of these podcasts.
Jessica Ella (1:12:19)
Yep, 100%.
Yeah, we could just keep walking.
Kristi McVee (1:12:29)
And well, let's share with my listeners exactly where they can find you because I think you've got a few different resources that would be amazing for anyone. share all of your things so that they know where to find you.
Jessica Ella (1:12:38)
Yeah.
Yeah, so for moms or women that are listening or even men who have experienced sexual trauma, I have the online trauma clinic, which I talked about before. So if you go on my website, www.jessicaella.com.au, there's a section there for one-on-one work. And there's a clinic there with six women that I trust with my life, who I've passed the baton over to who work with people with complex trauma, sexual trauma, all of the PTSD, everything. And they...
are so well trained to do everything that I spoke about with processing those traumatic memories. So for people who've been triggered who might need to do some of that work themselves, there's that. And then on the other side, there's the book and that's for parents, grandparents, for anyone who wants to, you know, educate their children. And the book is www.secretorsurprise.com.au and the name of the book is Secret or Surprise. And that's, yeah, that's been a really
important one. Like that was a really powerful one to write. That is very, it's very, I don't know, you've read it, so you'll be able to help with that. But I think we've aged it from like four plus. It's got Australian animals. It's very bright and colourful. ⁓
Kristi McVee (1:13:43)
Yeah, I love it.
It's stunning.
It's a stunning book and I have got it on my list of books you must have if you're a protected parent. And ⁓ also I've been recommending it to childcare and early childhood education centres and stuff because I think it's a really important book to have in your library.
Jessica Ella (1:14:00)
Thank you.
Yeah, we've been trying to get into schools and things as well. think it's, there's not really any other books out there that kind of cover it from that perspective. And I think it helps that I had the lived experience of what would I need to hear. My mom was a primary background and my sister was an artist. So was like the perfect little blend. So yeah, we're really passionate about that. And we haven't really done much with it because we've all got our own business.
Kristi McVee (1:14:14)
It's done really well. You guys did a good job.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Live.
Jessica Ella (1:14:32)
things, but it's there and it is going to be a focus in the coming months. So yeah, I definitely recommend that to every parent that's in, you know, in looking into tools and things that they can have, especially to have the uncomfortable conversations in a gentle way. Cause that's where we were sort of trying to aim.
Kristi McVee (1:14:47)
Yeah, and I recommend for parents who are talking about body safety, especially is to have those books as a backup, like as in, you know, you don't just have to have one on one conversations or a conversation in the car or in the bathroom or wherever, you know, reading a book now and again, something like secret or surprise is just it's giving the lesson in a different way that is, you know, not having a conversation, especially when you get those moments where your child's like, I don't want to talk about this. reading a really beautiful book that's got beautiful
Australia themes and pictures your sister did an amazing job and then it's also you know like it's able to reiterate the lessons that you're having every day.
Jessica Ella (1:15:26)
Absolutely. Yeah, can't be the only tool. Definitely. It's one in the toolbox.
Kristi McVee (1:15:31)
Yeah, one in the
toolbox. They're like, we've got to have all the tools, but yeah, no, great. find you and on your socials, you're amazing on your socials as well.
We'll share everything in the show notes so that people can find you. I honestly, think you'll, I'm so glad that you've trained some people up to help with your, with your practice because it's, it's, know, we, need more, more and more and more tools, whatever works. And I'm so glad that now I can refer people to what you you're providing as well.
Jessica Ella (1:15:39)
I see how low you are.
way more.
Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It was a great chat. I loved it. Thank you.
Kristi McVee (1:16:03)
Yeah, I loved it too. Thank you. ⁓
Kristi McVee (1:16:08)
Thank you for listening to this episode. Education empowers children, strengthens parents and most importantly, prevents abuse. That's why I do this work and that's why you're here. So truly thank you. If you'd like more support or resources, follow me on social media under Kristi McVee or CAPE-AU where you'll find all the links in the show notes. You can also grab a copy of my book, Operation KidSafe, a detective's guide to child abuse prevention at www.cape-au.com
where you'll find further resources and self-paced courses to help you in this journey of protecting your kids. If you found this episode valuable, please take a moment to leave a review or share it with someone important. Your support helps more parents and caregivers discover this important information and take action to keep kids safe. Check the show notes for extra links and support. And most importantly, thank you for showing up and taking action to protect your kids. See you next time.
