Maggie Ciobanu - Podcast Interview
===
Kristi: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the CAPE Podcast. CAPE standing for the Child Abuse Prevention and Education Podcast. My name is Christy McVie and I am an ex West Australian police officer who spent 10 years with the police where I was trained as a specialist child interviewer and a child abuse detective. This podcast is all about sharing what I learnt, saw and knew whilst investigating child sexual abuse in the police force.
It is also about sharing the knowledge that I gained in that time that helped me with my own parenting of my then two year old daughter. My mission is to help share my knowledge and to help you in your role as parents to keep your kids safe along with guest experts in the field of child abuse prevention and education, both in person and online.
Thank you so much for joining in on the fight to prevent child sexual abuse. Your kids will thank you for it.
Hello and welcome back to the CAPE podcast. I am very excited to talk today with [00:01:00] a, mutual friend, which it's really exciting how I'm meeting people and inviting them onto my podcast. And today I'm talking with Maggie Chobono, um, who is going to tell us a little bit about. An app that she created and the story behind the app.
But first of all, I wanted to explain how I met Maggie had not heard of her or her app until recently when I met another mutual friend who told me about Maggie's story. And I'm not going to tell it because , it needs to come from the horse's mouth. But last week I hosted a how to prevent your child from grooming workshop. And Maggie came all the way, 200 and something kilometers, all the way to come and listen to me speak. So we've now met in person. I really love how we connect with people online. And then when we get to meet them in person, it's like they're our friends straight away.
So thank you so much for being on. Today, Maggie, and for having a chat with me about your app and I don't want to give too much away because I really want listeners to hear your whole story. But first of all, thank you. [00:02:00] And second of all, how are you today? Like you're in Bunbury. It's a beautiful, sunny spring day here.
How are you?
Maggie: Yeah, I'm great. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. Um, it's a beautiful day today. So I'm really sort of looking forward to spending the rest of the school holidays with the kids and just making beautiful memories before
Kristi: they go to school. I know. So Maggie, you created an app and for some people.
The thought of like doing that or going that next step to creating an app is pretty massive. But first of all, I'd love for people to hear about why you created an app and then about what your app's about.
Maggie: Yeah, sure. My daughter, my oldest, cause I've got three kids, uh, she's now 16.
However, when she was 12 and grade six, she. Was actually cyber bullied to the point where they created a group chat specifically targeted at her called the Kick Eva Club. And in that group chat within a space of [00:03:00] 10 minutes because she made me aware of it. And so I was actually having a look at those messages.
They were body shaming. I mean, her that was swearing the profanity that I was using was just so explicit that I actually got on. And these were kids that were coming to my house, birthday parties. We knew them. It wasn't like, it was like some random children in this group. These were kids that went to school with her.
They're in a class. We had a relationship, you know, going back and this just stemmed out of nowhere. So it wasn't something that was planned. It was actually something that happened. While we were away on holidays and when I got online, they just did not care the fact that I was there and that I was addressing the issue they were giving me laughing emoji is ha ha ha laugh out loud.
They did not care the fact that I was on and it really sunk in that parents didn't know what their kids were doing at that moment.
Kristi: Wow, so In [00:04:00] regards to this bullying, so it was, like you said, and I've seen it myself, you know, friends can turn on each other so quickly online. And so these were people that your daughter knew and were friends with at 12 saying horrendous things.
So what kind of things were you saying to the kids when you were messaging? You're obviously letting them know that you were aware of the messages. So what, happened next?
Maggie: Yeah, so I got on and I was texting them on this group chat saying, Hey, this is her mum. We've just landed from Bali. We're seeing the messages.
What are you guys doing? And they did not care. The fact that I was there and I was telling them that the mum was there meant nothing to them.
Kristi: So what was your next step after that? What did you do to help your daughter
Maggie: with it? Well, because that was my first incident, the next morning, as we're getting ready for school, um, in the group chat, they were still targeting her and again in the morning, I got online and I said, guys, this is her mom, [00:05:00] like, why are you guys continuing with this kind of profanity?
And. One boy said something to me that obviously can't be aired because it was that bad. I was actually shocked and taken back and yeah, the moms and dads are usually at work around that time. So they wouldn't know what their kids were saying. And all I did was take screenshots and I went to the school and I said to the principal, Oh my gosh.
Look what they're saying. At the same time, I'm shaking. My heart's palpitating. I don't know what's going on in this world. Like, I don't know how to fix this.
Kristi: Yeah. And a lot of parents feel like that, don't they? Because I personally, even though I did this for a job, I helped parents through these incidences of bullying and targeted bullying.
I even now. Would get nervous even now. I've stepped in a few times in the, in the recent years and, you know, even I get nervous, you know, confronting children, confronting other adults, because you don't know how they're going to take it either when you call them out
Maggie: on their [00:06:00] behavior. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
And the school, I mean, there were about, say at least 15 kids in this group. The school just only, um, addressed maybe Three to four of those kids, but what about the rest of them? Like they all got, you know, they didn't get any kind of, um, repercussions or yeah, they just didn't handle it because not long after it started all again.
So,
Kristi: and there's a lack of responsibility and a lack of you know, for want of a better word, policing online. You know, there's only so much actual police can do with cyber bullying. A lot of it. A lot of it's outside of their legislation and, some of it's just outside of what they can deal with and they're understaffed, undermanned, under whatever, then when you do go to a school and because it's online, a lot of schools are like, well, It happened while they weren't at school, we can't do anything, or [00:07:00] it's not something that we can deal with, or it's not something that involves us.
And so there's lots of grey areas that cyberbullying happens, isn't there?
Maggie: Yeah, it's just one of those things that they've got so many platforms in which they can Say these things. I mean, as parents, we just can't keep up. So there's discord and there's um, Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, Tik Tok, Snapchat.
Yeah. And the list just goes on and they just keep forming more of these new trends of where they're chatting and you can't keep up as a parent based on the technology that's being used. So I just made the worst mistake is I didn't realize the dangers when we handed over the phone.
Kristi: Yeah. Yeah. And I think you're not alone. You're not alone because parents as parents, we think we need to be able to contact our young people. We need to be able to speak to them on, you know, if they're catching buses or walking home or, you know, [00:08:00] they're getting to high school, you want them to have that.
Yeah. You know, connection there, you need to be able to connect with them, but then it opens their world up to a whole other world. Like their little, their little world becomes a big
Maggie: world. Really? Yep. Absolutely. I mean, technology is amazing in some aspects because, you know, the future will be with the technology so they can be very creative and there are.
You know, good communication tools. However children aren't able to handle anger or frustrations, and they tend to lash out on a social media platforms just because they can.
Kristi: Well, because it's easier, they're behind a screen, you know, the minute you're behind a screen and we see grown adults do it as well, right?
We see grown adults make comments on political issues and they can say the nastiest. Most racist, most prejudiced, most sexist, whatever they want because they think because I'm behind a screen, I'm untouchable. And there's this, there's this warped sense of reality there, like they wouldn't say it to someone's face, [00:09:00] but then they'll say it online.
And so it's. Adults and kids both get caught up in this. So you went to the school and only three to four kids actually were spoken to and had any, any repercussions out of this. So what came from that? What was the after effects or, or the fallout?
Maggie: Well, and this is actually statistically known to happen when cyberbullying happens online, it continues in the school.
So these kids were actually continuing the bullying in the school, the hatred. So she had a 24 hour window dealing with these cyberbullying. But luckily, I was one of those parents that was quite involved with her where she'd come to me and we'd just deal with it. But I mean, the amount of cyberbullying that goes not noticed by the parents and, you know, at the end of the day, there could be some really tragic consequences where they, I wish I would have known.
I,
Kristi: and yeah, and a lot of parents don't know how to deal with it, I mean, I personally don't always know [00:10:00] what to deal with, but like you, I've always been a hands on parent. I've always made sure that, you know, my daughter you know, sometimes she hasn't talked to me, but she's eventually talked to me and we've dealt with things and we've made it happen, but she always knew that she could come to me and I would try and help.
and handle it. Because a lot of these issues aren't kids issues to deal with, they're adult issues. They're dealing with adult issues. So she came to you and she was being bullied in the schoolyard. So what led you down the path to where we are now with an, a whole app? Like what, where did that go?
Maggie: So, um, we dealt with more cyberbullying as the years went by and just at each stage I thought, yep, I've got this under control, but I thought I was one of the very few parents that was experiencing this. So, you know, we were just stuck in our own family going through our day to day business thinking, okay, we're dealing with this, this is a problem, but I didn't know about the outside world.
And it wasn't until year nine when everything was okay for her friend group, but her friend group. That she was in [00:11:00] was bullying one of the girls and this just came out random because one kid didn't like her for some reason. So the whole group turned against her and the only person she had on her side was my daughter and she would come to me and she's like, mom, look what they're saying about her.
And I had a look at some of those. You know, group chats and we're talking everything from body shaming to appearance. Yeah, like they were making fun of her appearance. There was, it was endless and this girl turned around to my daughter, her friend, and said, I just want to end it. I just cannot cope with the bullying and it continued in the school as well.
So this was, you know, a 24 seven thing where she just couldn't get away. So she was spending her lunch hour in the toilets with my daughter.
Kristi: And that puts on a lot of pressure. Like our kids. Not just your daughter and her friend, but our kids all are dealing with this in one way, shape or [00:12:00] form, whether they're supporting another friend going through it, or they're part of a bigger group doing it, or they're seeing it from the out.
It's, it's impacting everything, right? How can they get good grades or, having the best time of their lives. You know, we keep talking about, you know, they should really enjoy their childhoods, but they're not, they're dealing with adult issues in childhood like this.
So yeah, it's, it's a bigger impact and a lot of parents, a lot of kids are dealing with this stuff as we, as we're now starting to find out. Yeah,
Maggie: well, it wasn't until at that same stage, I saw a news article about a boy locally that had committed suicide. And in the article, I read with the parents saying, but I didn't know.
I would have done something different and that's when I just put a stop to it and I said, look, if no one's going to do it, at least I can say that I've tried and I'm going to create this app. And I knew that the kids, all they need technically is just a moment to stop, think and reflect like [00:13:00] the same you would with a young child next to you go, Oh, look, that's.
Not okay to say those things and just address those problems. This app works the same way because if your child is about to cyber bully somebody and it's about to fat shame, you know, use the word fat, for example, it will stop that message before being sent and it will prompt them with a warning trigger saying, are you sure you want to send this, my child.
Child at that point needs to make a decision between a yes and a no. And by the consciously making those decisions, they're educating themselves to make the right ones. And if they proceed with that message going across, me as the parent, I'll get a copy. And then I can look at the app and say, okay, we need to talk about this.
Why did you say that, you know, say about someone's body, like, you know, who were you talking to? Let's address this and apologize because this is not the way to handle things.
Kristi: Yeah, so we haven't mentioned the app. So what's the app name? [00:14:00]
Maggie: It's called You Choose. So it's actually named by my daughter, the eldest, and she said because you have a choice and the same as in life and and this is really giving the parents The choice to make whether they want their, um, their actual camera roles scanned as well for anything like partial nudity, nudity, violence, drug use.
I mean, we have a huge list over there that will scan their camera library, but the parents can't has the flexibility to turn that on and off. That feature. Yeah. Then on top of that, the kids can actually make their own decisions as well. Yeah.
Kristi: Yeah. So basically, um, just to explain it to any listeners. So the app, you download the app onto your child's phone and you download it onto your phone.
So you, the you choose app is on both devices. Um, and then you as a parent can turn it on and off, whether it goes through their camera roll or it just is picking up on their messages or private messages, that sort of stuff. [00:15:00] Is that right?
Maggie: Yes, exactly. So you have the flexibility to based on the age groups, because we know that someone who's got a 10 year old child might not want the same categories as someone who's 15.
So you may not want the camera roll. scanned, but you can turn that on and off and you can be as involved as you want as a parent in regards to the profanities. So we have currently about two to 300 words approximately and that's abbreviations that they're using today. That have it been inbuilt to detect if they're about to say it, however, as a parent, I can actually be more involved and put in their, their age, I could put in their school the suburb you live in your street address, then that way to prevent grooming because grooming is.
Essentially the first stages would be trying to obtain like personal information. Yeah. So if [00:16:00] we can detect that, like my son on a message alerted me, I'm 12 years old. I can have that conversation and say, well, who are you chatting to? Like you would be telling them that you're 12 years old and he was talking to someone from his school.
So it's a really good conversation to have because then you can kind of have that communication with your kids as well in other
Kristi: aspects. Yeah. Wow. So I didn't realize that it actually picked up so much. I didn't actually know that it scanned because I, I, my daughter, unfortunately is as old as your daughter.
And I, I went to download it on both our apps to check it out. And I, she was like, I'm not having this on my phone, but you know, that was, you know, she's just at that age where she's like, this is my phone. Uh, and we've had those conversations and, and, you know, I probably could. Definitely use it on her phone, but I would have loved this app when she was around, well, when she was around nine or ten on her iPad.
Does it work on other, is it [00:17:00] iOS only or is it on Android yet or?
Maggie: Yeah, at the moment due to funding issues, I've only been able to roll it on iOS and I really did want to make one platform really well when it was developed instead of focusing on two. So we've only rolled it out on iOS. I am hoping to get some government grants and yeah, just really get it out there and get some funding happening so that I can roll it out to Android.
Kristi: So when the app, so it sends a message saying, are you sure? And they've got to then make a conscious decision to say yes or no. What about with regards to the photos and stuff like that, or, um, you know, how you're saying about the scanning of the photos, what does the app do there?
Maggie: Yep. So I really wanted to have a level of privacy as well for the kids so that we're not showing photos to parents that they probably shouldn't, wouldn't want to see really.
So it'll scan the camera library using AI technology, but [00:18:00] we're actually not showing over the photos to the parents. We're only notifying them through the app that something's been detected. So it will actually be. Um, partial nudity detected, and that would be her in a swimsuit. It could be so, so just a text that, but it's really important for parents to be made aware that if these, if there's a violent picture there where they've taken a photo of someone getting beat up at school, that's not circulating.
And the same is nude photos as well. We really want to limit those photos from being transmitted, you know, through Snapchat and other methods.
Kristi: That is so good and so thoughtful and so like you put a lot of thought into that because from my perspective as in the police, we would see, you know, videos and photos of fights, videos and photos of children's, you know, other, other child's nudes being circulated through Snapchat group chats.
Um, you know, and one of the things that I have [00:19:00] said in my Presentations to young people when I was talking about, you know, group chats in particular. And what most kids don't understand is is that. When you're in a group chat and someone else is bullying someone, telling them to go kill themselves or sharing nudity, sharing child exploitation material, everyone in that group chat is a party to that offense.
If they don't take action, they are also, so for instance, in this, in the space of child exploitation material or child abuse material, where a child sends someone else's nudes to a group chat, they are, you know, everyone in that group chat, if they remain in that group chat, And they don't do something like take action so that they remain a bystander, not an up, you know, not an upstander, as we like to say, then they are also liable to be charged with the, you know, the having that child exploitation material on their phone because they're part of that.
And a lot of young people don't realize that. And same [00:20:00] with group chats where someone says, go kill yourself, you know, you can't tell people to go kill themselves. And if you sit in that group chat and you don't say, Hey, that's not on, we're not, you know, or you don't remove yourself from that, you're a party to that offense.
It's a, you know, and you can live, you are liable for what happens in that group chat for being in that group chat. So it's really important for young people and for parents to understand that. We need to teach our children to be upstanders and not just bystanders and just stand around watching stuff go on in, on, in the online world.
So your app helps that.
Maggie: Yeah. I mean, I, I pretty much did think of everything for version one where it's at, it's an amazing tool and the earlier parents actually implement this, you know, let's say you're giving a device at 10. You have this app installed, they will not know any other way to communicate.
They won't have the, um, insecurities of, Oh my gosh, like, [00:21:00] you know, I'm going to send this over and then there's going to be a fight at school because it's sort of escalated from a group chat or something like that. Because if they can't say it early on
nicely and the really good thing about this app is the earlier you start them , you know, whenever you decide to hand them over a device, they will only know to speak kindly online, which is exactly what we want, because the really good thing about this app is it doesn't monitor normal conversations. It only picks up any profanity words that we've detected.
And that you input into the app yourself.
Kristi: Mm. And is there any sort of like other key words like you know, we were just talking about, you know, children telling each other to kill each other, kill themselves or those sorts of words that they highlighted
Maggie: as well. Yeah. So, so parents can actually input just to make sure they can put it in as an additional keyword, kill, die.
I mean, it's endless, the amount of words that you can actually [00:22:00] use and names.
Kristi: Yeah. Right. I just find it so cool. Like you're one of those people and I talk about this all the time. You're one of those people that saw a problem and went, I'm not doing this anymore. We're not playing this game anymore when it created something.
And I love. People like you and people like me and the other people out there that just go see a problem and they go and fix it. I just think we're, you know, because our kids need us to be problem solvers, right? We need to fix these problems for them. Yeah, they need to have some resilience and yeah, they need to learn to deal with people not liking them, but we can do that without being.
Complete and utter mean, horrible people to each other as well. We don't have to agree with each other, but we can actually be still kind to each other whilst not agreeing.
Maggie: Yeah, I totally agree with that. I mean they can learn the right way to communicate and not participate in those nasty conversations.
Patients that they're having in the group chats, you know, the usual times when they're in those group [00:23:00] chats and someone is attacking, you know, some profanity at someone else. It's usually because they've got the backup of some, you know, other kids there and it kind of just escalates from there. But if we can prevent those kids from participating, which are your children, it's not actually, you know, I'm looking after mine and making sure I got this app installed so that I can address the problems.
And I just need parents as well, just to be proactive and really doing the same thing with their own kids.
Kristi: Yeah. And have you had much feedback from parents or adults or even kids about the app? Have you had any feedback yet?
Maggie: Yeah. So when we did a study of over a hundred children, um, all of them have said that if they were alerted that their parents were going to get a copy of that message before they were going to send it, they wouldn't go ahead.
Really? Yeah. Realize the implications and then they would say it wouldn't be worth it.
Kristi: Yeah. Well, because they might be called on their behavior and they [00:24:00] might lose a privilege or there might be a consequence. Because as we know, um, and I'm sure you did your research in regards to this young people or young kids.
don't have critical thinking. Their critical thinking isn't developed. That part of the brain isn't developed. And especially in group situations where it becomes a bit of a pack mentality and everyone joins in if they knew what your app does is basically creates that.
Critical thinking, it helps them go, Oh, take that pause, reflect and, and go, okay, well, actually this isn't worth it. I'm not going to
Maggie: send it. Yes, exactly. And that's what we want. So it's really getting them to make the right choices early on in life so that, you know, later on when they become adults, this is the way they've kind of grown up in that kind of environment at the moment.
What we've got is a whole generation and they're going into, you know, 16 and onwards and they've been accustomed to like things like anxiety and just not sleeping well [00:25:00] because of conversations they've had where they've been bullied. I mean, it just can't continue. What's going to happen further on if we don't do something now, it'll be too late.
Yeah,
Kristi: totally. Totally. Oh, well, I'm so proud of you for creating this. Um, what is your, what is your family think about the app? And were they all part of the creation of it? I know your daughter named it. So what are they thinking? And, and how are they? How are they feeling since it's been
Maggie: launched? Yeah, they've always been quite supportive at the beginning.
I think when it started financially it was very hard because I bootstrapped this myself with my family, putting everything together, selling our family caravan to get it all happening. So there was quite a few moments where we had some tears of the sacrifices that we need to make. But in the long run, I turned around to my kids and I go, This is for the greater good of our other children around Australia, around the world, that we could make a [00:26:00] difference the way so that no kids can be cyber bullied at the extent that they are now.
And, and when it came out on Apple stores, my son, his face just lit up at the fact that, you know, it's been in production for the prototype and then onwards, he just couldn't believe it. I think even I couldn't believe it when it, you know, launched on iOS
Kristi: devices. That is so cool. I know it's like giving birth again.
Like it's another baby, isn't it? Right? When you create something with all your love, sweat, tears, passion, and all of that angst and everything. It's like giving birth to a new baby.
Maggie: Yep, it was. And it was. Like the longest pregnancy, I reckon, for two years.
Kristi: Well, it probably didn't help that like we've had COVID and things slowed down and stuff like that, but the sacrifice will be worth it in the end from your family, because you're going to protect and help so many other children and families from the heartache that [00:27:00] you guys have been through.
So, um, well, I just wanted to finish up with one question that I asked all my guests. So when I was writing my book and, and going through that birthing process, I kept thinking, you know, if parents knew what I knew, they would do things differently. And I'm sure whilst you were creating your app, it was probably something similar.
Like parents just need to know what I know, parents need to know what we've been through. So what is something that you want parents to know?
Maggie: Um, I really want parents to know that if, if you think your child is not one of those kids that will cyber bully, it's actually not the case. It's really, you just don't know who it could be.
And I really need parents to sort of get their heads out of the sand and not say, nah, my child can't do that. I see my child where they're located. Nah, they wouldn't be cyber bullying. I'm here to tell you they are.
Kristi: Um, and they can, yeah. Not my child doesn't exist.
Maggie: [00:28:00] Yes, yes, that's right. So it's, it's a really concerning thing for me as a parent and having developed this app that when I put it out there on social media, I am hearing parents deflect on the importance of this app by saying things like, Oh, my kid wouldn't do that.
I see where they're located. Oh, you know, it's just another app and government as well saying, you're not government, we can't support you. You know, I'm really trying to reach out to parents and say, this is the reality. This is what's happening. Kids are committing suicide at alarming rates. And I spoke to a mom recently and her daughter passed away about five years ago.
But she was crying on the phone and she said. Oh my gosh, if only your app had been developed then, it could have made a difference. We won't know, but at least this way you now know that this is available, so why wouldn't you use it? And it's really important to use these parenting tools.
Kristi: [00:29:00] It's there for us to make our jobs easier as parents.
It's there for us to protect our kids. It's there for us for the same reasons that I wrote my book and I'm, I'm doing my workshops. Yeah, we might not be government but we're there because we're putting ourselves on the line to help you and your families with this, with what you're doing, with what I'm doing.
We're putting ourselves out there to keep
Maggie: your kids safe. Yep, absolutely. And you know, the world will be a better place once we've got those measures on our devices so that we can protect these kids. And we know that we've done the best parenting possibly that we could do.
Kristi: Yeah. Yeah, I applaud you.
And I will be sharing your app with all the parents I talked to. It's it's such a well thought out app. And again, I think you should be commended. I hope you've been on Sunrise. If you haven't, I'll send the details to the producer that I've spoken to on Sunrise a couple of times.
And Parents should be thanking you for putting [00:30:00] yourself out there and creating something like this for them, because it will make a difference. I know it will make a difference. And cyberbullying is one of the biggest problems our young people are going through now, you know, along with all of the other things that they're dealing with this, it's no wonder parents are a bit overwhelmed because there's so much going on for our young people.
And it's parenting is not like it was you know, you've got to have your finger on the pulse of a lot
Maggie: of issues. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the fact that we actually need to stop and think and reflect ourselves with social media bullying, you know, as adults, we make so many mistakes, but if we're making the mistakes, what are our kids doing?
So, yeah, but we can be there for them to do the right thing.
Kristi: Yeah . Well, thank you so much, Maggie, for coming on and having a chat and sharing about your app and sharing about your story with your family. And, and I hope that soon you'll be able to buy a new caravan.
Maggie: I hope so.
Kristi: But yeah, you can get the app on iOS.[00:31:00]
So all Apple devices or Apple iPad, Apple phones. Maybe if anyone's buying a new phone for their kids before school, high school starts next year, or they're buying a new iPad because they need to take their own iPad to school next year, definitely download the app before you hand it over at Christmas.
I think that would be a good plan. and then you've got that protection for both you and for them, and you can keep an eye on what's going on. So, uh, get, get a hold of that. Now, Maggie where can people find you if they want to keep up to date with what you're doing and what you choose
Maggie: is doing?
Yeah, sure. So you can follow us on Instagram, so you choose apps and also Facebook, which is just you choose. So I'm on all social media platforms. And if you can just message me on those platforms, I'll be replying to the messages. Yeah. Any
Kristi: feedback as well. Yeah. And you choose is. It's Y O O C H O O Z for anyone who's wondering, because I told my daughter [00:32:00] about it and she was really impressed but she looked it up as the other spelling as you would imagine.
But it's you choose. It's the cool way to spell you choose you know, Y O O C H O O Z. So just so anyone goes looking for Maggie, you can find her there.
Maggie: Excellent. Yeah. Thanks Mags. Thank you so much, Kristy, for having me. You're
Kristi: welcome. I will talk soon.
Thank you for listening to this podcast episode. Education empowers children and empowers parents and education prevents abuse. That is why I'm here and that is why you are here. So thank you. If you want any further information or support, follow me on social media, either under Christy McPhee. Or KAU social media accounts.
I'll put the links in the show notes. You can also purchase a signed copy of my book Operation Kids Safe via the [email protected]. Also, on my website is a [00:33:00] free ebook titled 10 Tips to Keep Your Kids Safe from Abuse. and self paced courses for parents to help you in your journey of child abuse prevention.
Don't forget to join our free Facebook group called Operation KidSafe Parenting Group. Please see the show notes for any extra information, links and help should you be looking for extra support. Thank you once again for giving a shit about preventing child sexual abuse. See you next time.
