Season 2, Ep2 Alison D'Vine
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[00:00:00] Hello. And welcome back to the Cate podcast. We're currently on season two, episode two. And this podcast episode is with the wonderful Alison divine from Sage NCWA. But I just thought I would touch base with you and let you know that I'm currently over in Paquette. Uh, Thailand. Editing this podcast.
Every time I do this to myself, I think why did I not do this before I left? But it's been a real, crazy time in my life. And, uh, For anyone who's not on my mailing list. Uh, I have included a bit more of what's happening in my life, in my latest newsletter, which is going out just before this podcast is released. But I also wanted to just make note that this podcast episode, although we're talking about domestic violence in its entirety and the counseling and you know, services available to men who wish to make a dramatic behavioral changes, we're not giving advice.
It's this is, this is not an advice [00:01:00] session. Obviously, if you require help in this space, you need to. Seek services that I have listed in the show notes. Uh, but you know, Alison, who has worked in this industry has had a lot of experience dealing with and talking to. People and men are about domestic violence about abuse and, uh, there's no condoning that behavior in any way, shape or form. But we do know that, uh, you know, domestic violence is a very complex issue and all of this information is just given for exactly that purpose as information.
So. Please check out the show notes. If you'd like any more for more information, please contact Alison, if you would like further information about our services, but also please note that. Uh, you know, Again, this is just information for anyone out there. Who's requiring it. Uh, and to go and seek professional help if you need it.
If you do enjoy this podcast episode, I really ask that you leave [00:02:00] a review. Uh, it reviews, help people reviews, help. I really do appreciate reviews. Uh, that I can share on my socials. Or I can share with others, uh, and it also helps, uh, get my podcast in front of more people. So please do review. And share.
And, uh, and hopefully you enjoyed this podcast episode, as much as I enjoyed having this conversation. Thank you very much. See guys.
Hello and welcome back I'm with the wonderful Alison Devine. From now you're gonna have to help me against SAG agency. SAG Agency. Yeah. SAG wa I've remembered Sag Wa. Um, so Alison and I connected through Instagram. We've been following each other on Instagram and just by what I've seen on Alison's Instagram, I knew we had to have a conversation because Alison is the founder of Sage and CWA, which is a men's behavior change and family therapy center in Perth, Western Australia, which is actually quite an interesting concept because it's not something we see a [00:03:00] lot of yet.
I think it's going to be something that we will see more of as you know, time goes by, but I think you're a, by the sounds of it, you're a revolutionary in this space, um, Alison. So I won't take any time explaining who Alison is and what she does and where and how she does it, because I'm going to let you hand it over to you now, Alison.
So tell me a bit about you. Thanks for having me on, Christy. Um, yeah, so I guess I'm the founding director, principal practitioner at Sage and CWA., just people are curious about the name. So initially I was going to call it Sage Counseling, but then I realized that that's taken up by like, Heaps of places around the world.
And then, , I was talking to a girlfriend and she was like, what about Sage and something, and then, and I was, then I sort of chose, we chose C and then it was Sage and C. And then when I had as a logo, it didn't like, it looked a bit disjointed. So then another friend was like, add them together and just turned it into Sage and C, which is like.
[00:04:00] Sage NC. So that's kind of how the name kind of came about in this weird roundabout way. Yeah. , but yeah, so thank you so much for having me on. Um, so we are actually the first fee for service men's behavior change program in Australia. So basically we offer the 22 week men's behavior change program at the moment.
The only way you can access it, if you're ordered through a family court or criminal court is, um, through like a not for profit agency like Anglicare, Centacare, Communicare. However, we're the first ones to set it up, , fee for pay private. Um, so, you know, you can access it, jump the queue, , and, you know, just have a bit more, , time.
I guess say and a choice and what you,, the service that you get, because we're also a little bit different in the way that we practice as well, that we include counseling as part of the behavior change. So usually the behavior change programs would go for your 24 weeks., and then there would be no additional sort of like counseling offshoots that go off it.
[00:05:00] However, like, , the way that I work is truly, I believe that, um, a lot of these behaviors are based, you know, in trauma. They're based in hurt. And so if we can sort of heal those spaces, that then the change actually gets easier to make. So as part of that sort of, , model, we do have, while the men are engaging in the counseling, we also offer like counseling,, sorry, in the sessions, we also offer counseling.
And if they ever want to unpack any of the sessions in more detail, they have access to it. Yeah. Okay. Wow. And tell me more about basically when you say men's behavior change and you're talking about criminal court and family court and stuff like that. So I'm guessing this is in regards to domestic violence.
Is that right? Yes, absolutely. Sorry. No, no, that's fine as well. So, I guess I get stuck in the acronyms myself. But yes, so the behavior change program is tailored to men who are,, choosing unsafe behaviors and unsafe. , so when I talk about abuse, I talk about it in terms of safe and unsafe [00:06:00] behaviors,, because I just feel like, you know, that takes away a lot of the shame, the judgment around it.
And that's how, when I talk to the men as well, when they say, how do I talk to my children about the behaviors that I'll always say, we'll say, You know, dad's made some unsafe choices or he's done some unsafe behavior. So when you hear me say safe and unsafe, it's sort of relating to abuse. , but yes, it's a, so it's behavior change program related to domestic violence.
Um, so we support the men in making those changes in the 22 week program, but alongside that, we also, , offer the partner contact for the females,, and the children that are involved in the, in the, , Relationship dynamic. Yeah. And that's sort of alongside the counseling as well. Yeah, fantastic. Cause it sounds like a more holistic approach to like changing behavior.
Cause like you said, a lot of these behaviors stem from trauma and their own hurt and, and things that have happened or that their beliefs that have, you know, formed in early childhood and [00:07:00] childhood. Um, so, and things that. you know, personally, like as a, as a detective, as a police officer, you know, even stuff that happened in my childhood would be triggered through something I would see or something that had happened or something my, even my family does.
So, you know, I can totally understand how this happens. And I saw it time and time again in, in the people I was dealing with in my position as a police officer. So. Yeah. A lot of the times, you know, I think, you know, the old sort of narrative around men that choose domestic violence is a, you know, behaviors that the narrative was that it was chosen by them.
It was purposeful. It was sort of like really, um, done because they almost hate women and they want to control them. Like, you know, some of the Lundy Bancroft stuff, which was the earliest sort of narratives around it was around this idea where Lundy would say, you know, a man who's doing domestic violence, he'll go into the home and he'll break everything that belongs to her, but will not break his stuff.
But then I guess, you know, as a police [00:08:00] officer, you would have seen it. I see it all the time where the men, when they're enraged, they don't care. They'll just break their own stuff. Sometimes, you know, they'll just break the TV, their car, you know, their own thing. So it's not. From what I've seen in the work that I've been doing, , I can see that it's more sort of that they get triggered into this emotional response, , and then they go offline, so to speak, and then they're sort of just.
Act out violently. So it's usually, and I say usually, because I mean, in the eight years that I've been working specifically with men, I have met probably about, I'd say three or four that I would probably say were quite sociopathic and narcissistic. So those sorts of men, like, yes, a hundred percent, like I've seen them.
Even in group, they, they would gaslight me. Like it was crazy. Cause, and they're trying to gaslight the group. Like, like I had this one man, he would say something and then I would just paraphrase it back to him. And he looked me dead in the eye and be like, I didn't say that. And I would be like looking around going, and then he's like, no, I didn't say that.
And then the group members would be like, [00:09:00] mate, you did say that we all heard you. And he's like, no, I didn't. I don't know what you guys are talking about. So, you know, that's sort of more that sociopathic, you know, narcissistic sort of, but I talk about narcissistic as well. It's more in terms of like the DSM, the personality disorder, not more the way people throw it around now.
You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that man definitely like a few of those men are like that, but most of the men that I see, they have such a massive trauma background, like such an emotional childhood, like, you know, that as a result of kind of what I call being stuck at that age, like arrested development.
And so you'll see men in the group that are like thirties, forties, fifties, but the way they talk, the way they hold themselves sometimes. It's, it's like I'm sitting in front of maybe like a five year old or a 10 year old or a 14 year old. It really, it's so different to what I imagined this work would be when I first started, but yeah, it's a space that I absolutely love working in.
Well, I've [00:10:00] got chills because I can tell you the amount of men I have, obviously, you know, The, the end of the line for a lot of people or the, the, you know, the culmination of all these, these traumas and bad behaviors end up with police getting involved. Like, you know, often that's where, where it ends.
Right. And, um, since leaving the police. You know, I don't often talk about this, but whilst you're in the police, you have like this police hat on, and you see people in that police lens, like bad and good,, criminal and not, you know, illegal and legal. You don't actually see things for, often see things for what they really are.
And since leaving and since doing the work I'm doing, I see things in a different way. In still in that police lens, but it's almost like the blinkers are off and I can see there's trauma behind that. There's, you know, there's this, you know, like you said that, um, development has stopped at a certain age, all of those [00:11:00] things.
And so it sort of makes more sense. Now. I wish I had have known that when I was a police officer. Yeah. But I think also like, I mean, I've worked with police officers, you know, in my line of work, um, my father in law is a police officer. I like, it's a police family, my husband's family. , but you know, so I can see from like, you know, from a self preservation and a self protection space, you almost have to, as a police officer, see things as black and white because the amount of stuff that, you know, police officers see on any given day, like you'd be going to one house and like seeing something.
And then like an hour later, you're in a different house, seeing something else. And I think self preservation. You do have to see it quite black and white and that cold sort of, this is just, you're breaking the law. However, like, you know, when you step out of it, I think then you can have that reflection.
But whilst you're in it, like, I think it would be really almost unsafe to keep seeing the traumas behind each person. Because then you would see so much stuff during the day that after like a week, you'd be like wanting to check yourself in to like. therapy or like it could explain [00:12:00] why I ended up with PTSD to be honest because um, I, and yes towards the end of my career I started actually seeing the people behind the the stuff like the behind the the the abuse or behind the, I, I saw the whole picture.
I was starting to see pictures of everything. And then, so that is what happens. You do actually start taking on a lot of that vicarious trauma. So, but getting back to what you do, um, with regards to this, so men, I guess, I mean, it's, it's not just domestic violence in men is there. So we know that, you know, it's a, it's a predominantly men based,, because I guess a lot of men haven't had that guidance into how to emotionally regulate, how to deal with stress, how to, you know, as we, we don't have the same coping mechanisms sometimes.
I mean, I know from my own husband and I, we have completely different coping mechanisms. And yeah. Um, so yeah. Yeah, so what [00:13:00] were you going to say? Sorry, complete. No, no, I was just going to say, you know, like, the fact that, you know, it's only just now, I think it's been really sad to see what I've seen in the, in the space of policing.
You know, I used to go to prisons and speak to men who had been, you know, sexually abused children, but then their life had a trajectory of, you know, they, they started using drugs and alcohol as a coping mechanism. Then they started stealing and then they started doing burglaries and robberies and, and that's how they ended up in, in jail, you know, and the same could be said for a relationship.
You know, I don't think most people, except for those sociopathic and those ones with personality disorders, I don't think they generally want to hurt the people they love. Yeah, absolutely. And that's something we talk about in growth. You know, there's one clip that we use in one of the sessions where it's an Italian clip and there's these little boys, they've got about five or six little boys.
And they're sort of, you know, between the ages of six to 10, and they'll say, you know, what do you want to be when you grow up? How [00:14:00] old are you? And then they'll bring a girl onto the, like, into the camera view. It's like an experiment. And they'll say, Pull a funny face to that girl. Um, and they'll pull a funny face and they'll say, stick your tongue out, stick your tongue out.
Then they'll say like, caress the girl's face. And then, you know, they'll do it. And then they'll say, now slap her. And just every single boy kind of just gets shocked and they look, and then they kind of go, no, I'm not going to. And that's not sort of, you know, and then they talk about it's an Italian ad.
And I think they talk about like that violence is not okay at any age, blah, blah, blah. Um, but then when I finished that clip, I always turned to the men and say, I bet if I was sitting with like 10 year old versions of all of you. Not one of you would have slapped that girl. So what's changed for you?
Like what's changed now till then? Like, you know, how has, how has that become okay for you to use those behaviors towards her? And a lot of the time, you know, when we unpack it, what happens is, you know, no man, again, from what I've seen, I can only speak from my experience, but no man wakes up and goes, Oh, I'm going to like, you know, smash my wife today, you know, whatever it is.
It's like, [00:15:00] they, they have a need. They, they don't know how to communicate that need as a result of that, then their emotions get dysregulated and then they'll, they'll respond with abusive behaviors. So, you know, my role is to help them actually, a, understand the need, b, understand a healthy way to express that need, c, to actually be okay with having that need.
Cause a lot of these men, um, that, you know, you know, We'll push emotions down, push needs down, push everything down until they explode. A lot of those men just don't know how to even, um, speak about their needs and express them healthily, or even feel that Okay. To have a need per se. So even helping them understand that they're worthy of having needs, they're worthy of having boundaries, they're worthy of being loved.
, and then showing them, you know, healthy and safe ways to express those needs to the people they care about. So another activity that we do is like the anger iceberg, which we sort of say, you know, the top of the tip of the iceberg is the anger, but then underneath the bigger part of the iceberg is all the emotions.
And I say, and [00:16:00] under the emotion, It's your needs. So we're really sort of unpacking. So we see anger and I get them to sort of talk about what does anger look like for them. Then we talk about what are the emotions that they're sort of feeling that's underneath the anger. And then underneath those emotions is what are the needs that you really want?
Like what is the needs that you really are hoping to get met? And then we can work because that's the stuff you can work with, you know? And then you can sort of move and progress. Um, and I think like, you know, shaming a man into, you know, changing his behaviors or just giving him the CBT knowledge of this is anger.
Take a time out. It doesn't work, you know, and, and we all know that, like, you know, perhaps some habits that we've tried to kick. It's never just been like, Oh, I'm not going to eat chocolate today. And then, you know, You eat chocolate and, um, I'm not going to finish that whole bottle of wine in my case. And then, you know, you're with your friends and the whole bottle is gone.
So habits are really hard to break. So it's about actually helping them unpack what's underneath all of that. What is the pain? [00:17:00] You know, what's the trauma that you're hiding from? And then you can move forward and make those changes. A hundred percent. I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, the chocolate thing, definitely.
Um, but also the needs thing. I mean, I've been with my husband for 27 years since we were 15 years old. And , we've been married 22 years. Like it's,, You like, sometimes I think, when did that happen? Like, but in our relationship, it's not without someone doesn't stay with another person for 27 years without challenges and without fighting it, fighting and without disagreements and arguing.
And with that, but what came from all of what the lessons I've learned over the years is that,, first of all, uh, you've got to want to, want to fix things. Both of you have to want to fix things. It can't be just one. It can't be just the other. It has to be both wanting to, to change, wanting to fix. And then the second part to that is, is that,, that needs thing.
I tell you what, everything we do is based in [00:18:00] need and, uh, you know, whether it be connection, whether it be. , nourishment, whether it be whatever it is, everything is a need and the feelings and emotions come from that. Um, and you know, dealing with toddlers is sometimes a very good indicator of how to understand need.
Yeah. Oh my God. I've got twins. Um, their toddlers at the moment. And trust me, I am all about the, you know, I made a joke at work a few months ago and they thought I was quite serious for, I was like, can I enroll in domestic violence counseling for myself? And they were like, what are you talking about? I'm like, she abuses me.
She slaps me. And then she gaslights me by pretending she loves me and hugs me. And then she also financially abuses me by making her pay for all the clothes and dresses. And they were like, But it's the truth. I'm like, seriously, she's abusing me. I know, but you know, I just read something about this. I just read exactly that thing this morning.
So I've got a teenager. And they're, they're [00:19:00] exactly the same. Like, they gaslight the shit out of you. Because my, my daughter's like, you didn't know. Can, can you please do this? You didn't ask me to do it. Yes, I did. Like, she will die on that hill when I ask her to do something that she was not asked to do.
Die on it. And you're like, Like, yeah, cause I've got like a 14 year old and then I've got two and a half year old. So I've got kind of got the both. And the birth. Yeah. The 14 year old as well. No, you didn't say that. And you're just like, I guess being like children of a therapist, they're really good with their words.
Yeah. And I'm like, you're weaponizing stuff I've said against you. Oh, don't worry. The West, sometimes it was the best thing I ever said to my daughter, but the worst thing at the same time, cause he's gone by. I said to my daughter when she was maybe about eight or nine, And she would used to say, you're making me angry.
And I used to say things like, well, you're responsible for your emotions and feelings. And [00:20:00] you, um, and if you're feeling upset with what I've done or said, then you need to, you know, deal with those emotions for yourself. I'm not responsible for how you feel. And you're not responsible for how I feel. And then, so years gone by, a couple of years later, she's like, I would say something like, Look, you're making me very upset right now with the fact that you're not X, Y, Z, and she's like, you're, you're responsible for your emotions.
That's on you. And I was like, Oh my God, why did I give you that? But you know, it's very good to be able to identify those emotions. So one of the things you said was that men, um, lack that. Sometimes they feel like they don't have the right to have needs, or they squash down their needs, or they feel like they don't have that, um, it's not allowed, right?
You said that, and I've seen that in my own husband, and I don't know where it came from, because obviously everyone has the right to their needs. So where do you think that actually stems from? Like that, that male Pushing down of needs, [00:21:00] pushing down of their wants and what they need, you know, whether it be emotional, physical or whatever connection, where do you think that stems from?
That's a great question, actually, because it actually ties in to a big chunk of our sessions that we do. It's around what we call like this man box. So the man box is this idea that men are, you know, from the time of birth they put and they gendered and that he sets of rules that are passed down through generations, like from granddad, dad, son, and there'd be things like men can't show emotions. Men can't be weak. Men can't wear pink. You know, men, um, Men don't talk about their feelings, men don't have feelings, you know, men are stronger, men are smarter, men are better at maths.
You know, all those different rules and each family will have a different set of like man box rules, so to speak, and then as a result, men end up policing themselves and policing other men on those rules. So, and that's where that needs kind of gets pushed down because, for example, like say you have, you come from a family where the man box [00:22:00] rule is that you're really good at speaking up.
Um, and then you're good at maths and science, but then you might really enjoy, you know, music and you might enjoy drawing and that's not allowed in your family. So that need in creative is then squashed down from a very young age and you'll have, you know, so one of the sessions that I do is I ask the men, what were the earliest messages that you got around being told,, like be a man manner.
What were the earliest messages? When was the earliest time you remember it? And, you know, some of the stories that I've heard in my time, it's quite, um, It's quite sad because some of the guys, they remember it from the age of like four and five, like, you know, where they'd be like, if you don't stop crying, I'm going to cut your, you know, off.
So then you can be a girl and then you can cry. Or, you know, if you keep crying, I'm going to put you in a dress or like, you know, this other guy, he said his family would push sport onto him a lot. So when he was winning, he was the apple of the parent's eye. So he said, when he would watch his dad would watch him on the field and he wouldn't yell like the other parents, he would just do this sign, [00:23:00] like pull your finger out.
And every time his dad would just stand there and we just do that action, the kid knew that he wasn't playing as much as he should, even if he was tired, even if he was sick, even, you know, he was cold, whatever it was, he had to push harder and be harder again, pushing down the needs. So it does really sort of tie into this idea of, you know, people say toxic masculinity, but I just call it like gender masculinity, because, you know, it's that, It's, it's sort of, you know, get this ingested society roles that we take in and then women and men do it because another session that we do is that we sort of, um, ask men, what do you police women on?
And you know, it's the same thing where women are kind and nurturing and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, so it's like men then end up policing themselves and policing women. And then women do the same thing. They police themselves and they police men. And, you know, For myself, like I grew up in the eighties, nineties, you know, so I was eight, eighties baby.
So nine different wild, it was like, you know, things like, Oh, that's gay was super normal. Or, you know, [00:24:00] boys weren't allowed to talk about their emotions, things like protective behaviors that are done in schools. Now consent discussions, none of that was had when I was in school, you know? So it was a different.
It's a different world, but a lot of the people that are coming through in the men's behavior change now are like people in their thirties, forties, fifties products off that world where you weren't allowed to have emotions where you had to be strong, where you had to not be gay, where it wasn't okay to be gay, where you had to be the provider, the breadwinner, all of those things, smarter than women, all of that.
So that's where I guess one of that needs pushing down happens. Yeah, yeah, that makes so much sense because some of the stuff that you said, and it's really sad. And I mean, I'm very reflective of myself. And even when I became a police officer, so my husband and I had been together for quite some time before I became a police officer.
Um, probably I'm just trying to think 13 years, right? I was. This kind of wife and, and partner and, and mom. [00:25:00] And then when I became a police officer, I had to flip into more of a masculine role. More of a Absolutely, yeah. Take charge. Be in control. And so our relationship really struggled for the first few years of that because it, it meant that my husband had to take on some of them more.
What we would say gendered female side of our relationship because I was working shift work and I was, you know, all of this stuff. And, um, it was a very interesting time. And I think that's why we have been able to, you know, reflect on some of that stuff. And then, then I left the job and I, and then we flipped again.
And so, you know, it changes as you grow in age and become more aware of this stuff. Absolutely. And that's the same with myself. When I first married my husband, I was doing a nine to five just counseling role. Um, and then, you know, I think it was five years into our relationship. I started doing the men's work, which is like evening work, you know, and that's like long hours shift work sort of thing.
And he had to. So I'm doing more like off the picking up from schools, the dinners, the baths, you know, with my two older boys. [00:26:00] And it was, you know, it does challenge your relationship because, and you'd have even people like women would say to me, Oh geez, you must have a really understanding, kind husband.
And I'm like, Hmm. Yeah. I mean, yes I do. But also it's also his kids. Like, and I'm still working. I'm not hanging out at the bar, you know? So again, you know, It's like we police other women, we police men, we police ourselves onto it. And I think a lot of that is these gendered roles. And so in the group with regards to domestic violence, you know, sometimes men will go, well, what if I'm happy with my role as like an alpha male?
And she's happy with her role being super feminine and doing all those feminine things. I'm like, that is absolutely okay. If you're both in agreeance with it, if you both agree with it, however, life will change. Like you said, children come along, you know, Sickness happens or whatever. So if life changes and then you don't change and you still stay stuck in your, but I'm an alpha male and I only do this and I don't cook or I don't pick up the kids or I don't put them to bed, [00:27:00] then it's going to be problematic.
So say you, you have, uh, you know, one child and then your second child, your wife's already sick when she's pregnant and you have to pick up the load and look after your son or your daughter, the best child. I said, if you don't want to, that's when you get stuck in those roles. That's when it's problematic.
But if you can both agree. Um, that, you know, this is, we're going to be changing these roles for a while. You have a chat about how it might be confronting or you might be hard and you sort of talk it through. That's okay. It's okay to have these roles, but it's also the need for flexibility in them as well.
And that's where it becomes problematic and abusive is when you both sort of come in with particular expectations. People change and then, you know, , needs don't get met and then it gets abusive, unhealthy and then abusive over time. Yeah, yeah. And I can totally see that in a lot of relationships. Like you said at the very beginning, no one goes into a relationship and wants to, you know, become a violent person.
They're not going into a relationship. Generally, they go into a relationship because they feel, Connect, you know, there's [00:28:00] some sort of connection. There's some sort of gen, you know, , attraction, whatever. And it, it's only through the fact that we don't talk about this stuff that it goes down a slippery slope into, you know, unhealthy behaviors, unhealthy, you know, um, conversations.
And I think we just,, again, speaking from my experience,, is that, you know, You know, 90s and above we didn't have the language. We weren't given the language. We weren't modeled that language by parents. We weren't modeled in my TV, you know, things like when you meet someone, you know, what are some important things to consider like, you know, I when I look at it now from this adult, like, you know, lens, it's like things like your finances who Who will be in charge of finances?
You know, what does the finances look like? The sharing of it, like, is it one account, two accounts, one main, you both have your own finances. Parenting, what does parenting look like? Do you have a particular, , you know, need or sort of style and the other person doesn't or whatever. [00:29:00] Things like finance, parenting, um, even intimacy.
What does intimacy look like? Again, the start is all like wham, bam, thank you ma'am. Like amazing. But then as you know, you, you, you sort of like the honeymoon period and you change and you kind of, you know, you're in the relationship for like five, 10 years. What does intimacy again look like? So it's this constant conversations that because we weren't modeled it from our parents that we've had it.
, oh, and another one, uh, like apologizing, you know, another huge one. Like for me, I had to learn how to apologize in my twenties. Like, it sounds like a joke, but like, no, I agree. And not like, you know, the, Oh, sorry. I bumped into you. Cause I'm very real. Everyone around me that doesn't matter, but the people that really matter, that's who I struggled with apologizing for.
And like your daughter, I would. Die on certain Hills, just out of pride being in like, you know, really shitty, unhealthy relationships myself, but then, you know, needing to apologize and taking accountability. Like that's [00:30:00] huge. And that's something, um, that I'm really passionate about. Like when we talk, when I talk with men about.
Um, helping them to understand that they weren't modeled an apology and then learning how to apologize because that on its own, uh, lack of those constant apologies. And then that will result in what we call the cycle of abuse, because say, you know, you have an argument, you both go away, he's feeling really shitty about himself.
He's in the remorse stage. If he doesn't know, you'll have the language to apologize. After the remorse, he's going to do what we call the buyback. So he's not going to apologize, but instead he'll buy the flowers or he'll cook dinner or he'll take her out for a date or whatever it is as like a fake apology.
And then she'll accept that. And then they'll kind of have a bit of a honeymoon period for a time, but because they haven't actually talked about the initial reason they had the fight, they haven't apologized. They haven't fixed that. They're going to go back again into like tension buildup and again, into the explosion.
So it's like a cycle that kind of, they keep looping because. [00:31:00] No one knows how to apologize. Yeah, Oh my God. So talking about apologies. My daughter said to me the other day, we had a massive blow up because as you do with teenagers, you, I've got one idea and she's got another. And, and interestingly, my husband's FIFO.
So of course, that's a whole nother, and I saw on your website that you. Help FIFO families as well. But, um, my, so, you know, when my husband goes away, my daughter and I just clash as you do. But, um, she said to me, I apologized to her and she said, I don't accept your apology. And I said, okay, what's the reason?
She goes, because I won't accept it until I see change behavior. Thank you. And I was like, okay, all right, I'll go away and think about this, but I have modeled that to her, you know, and I have to say that though and set a boundary. Oh my gosh. Well, she, and I was like, and I wasn't in the [00:32:00] best of moods that day.
And I love her to pieces. My daughter, she sounds like she's going to, she's either going to rule the world or she's going to rule her family anyway. She's gonna be the real like CEO. She's gonna be like the head of a prison gang. I feel Yeah, that's exactly it. Oh my goodness. But, um, yeah, no, she's, and she's got a boyfriend of nearly two years and, and she's exactly the same with him.
She's like, change behaviors is the best apology. If you, if you, you can. And I think it's because when she was little, I, she used to apologize all the time. As you do, we all, we , taught, um, saying sorry. And, but you know, a generic, generic sorry means nothing. Sorry means nothing. You have to then follow it up with what you're sorry for and why you're sorry.
You know, I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings. I'm sorry. I said that, that was really horrible of me. And then full stop the end, no justification of why, you know, you know, we've got to, and I've had to stop myself recently from [00:33:00] adding on, but you did this, that made me feel like this. And so, you know, I have to own my own shit.
And so. I'd like, I guess, um, I'm talking to you, as you said, toddlers and teenagers, that it's like being in a, in those kinds of relationships. Yeah. Um, but I'm not, I mean, it's a beautiful point because we're also learning, right. Is that we, even as parents, like myself, I do therapy, but then there's moments where.
Um, you know, like I'll hear my children say things and that I've taught them and I'm like, okay, fair enough. Yep. It's great that you're modeling it. And then you need to sort of also catch yourself and do it as well. So I think we're all just humans doing the best we can. But from your story, what I loved was that she said, I'm not going to accept your apology.
And I think that's something that I'm also like, I was saying, sorry, that's another thing that I think is really important to teach kids and teach, you know, your loved ones is that it's okay to not accept the apology [00:34:00] until they're ready. So you can't force someone to accept your apology. And that's something, you know, even with my son, like when I'll say to him, I'm sorry.
And then he's. My seven year old and then he'll be like, Nope, not ready yet. And I'm like, okay, it's true. It's fair, even though they can be brutal, but it's the same in relationship. It's the same in relationships. Because, you know, you say you say you're sorry to your partner and they say, I'm not ready to accept it.
I think that's very valid because what you might have done might have really hurt them and they might need some time themselves to go and heal and then come back and then revisit the conversation. And I think that's also valid. But sometimes what happens is. Again, if you're not taught to say sorry, or you're not taught to wait for the apology or allow a person to heal, what ends up happening is this pursuer distancer sort of dynamic where the person's like, Well, I said, I'm sorry, just move on.
And the other person's like, I need time. I need space. And they're like, well, how much time do you need? Tell me how much time do you need? Just move on. Move on. Why can't you move on? You always do this. And then they end up like [00:35:00] doing that push pull. And then again, that goes unhealthy. And then over time that'll become abusive because initially it might just start with the shouting and then it will start with like shouting, door slamming and shouting, throwing things, then shouting, pushing each other, then shouting, hitting, you know, escalate.
So yeah, definitely saying sorry, but then also waiting for that apology to land. You can't force it. That's yeah, I think also with regards to waiting for that apology to land and waiting for that person to accept or be ready to receive that apology comes down to consent and teaching being okay with no.
So for instance, um, you know, in my earlier years, I wouldn't know how to accept it when someone said no to me or because, because most of us, I'm, I'm an eighties baby as well. I grew up in the eighties and nineties. Most of us, we were told do it. Yeah. Do it or else. Yeah. Don't talk back. Yeah. Don't talk back.
You're going to cop it. Do it or else. You know, you [00:36:00] didn't get a no. You weren't allowed to even voice a no to your parents. And, and it's not our parents fault because they didn't know how, you know, I guess. They didn't know better because that's how they were modeled. And it's only now that we're seeing a shift in the perception of parenting and, and all of this stuff, we're being more educated.
And when you know better, you can do better. But, um, I, I didn't get that model to me at all. So I struggled with those, especially in my relationship with my daughter, but it's in the last probably five or six years, I went, you know, You can't force it. You have to wait for them. It's they have autonomy.
They're a human. They're a person. Then they don't belong to me. Even my child doesn't belong to me, even though I birthed her, you know, so I have to accept what she's ready and able to take on and hear. And I guess that's the one thing that I think. Consent education can potentially start helping people understand.
Absolutely. I think consent, you know, all this protective behaviors [00:37:00] training, cause I'm a protective behaviors practitioner as well. I think it's so important like around consent, you know, like my toddlers at daycare, they've already been told to say no, like, you know, and the five different ways you can say no, you start off with a polite, no, and then you get louder and then you can.
Yeah, no, all of that I think is so important because it gives you autonomy of your body. Like, you know, like again, how many of us will grow up and we're like, go give auntie a hug or go give like, you know, uncle a kiss on the cheek or whatever. And you weren't allowed to say no, you know, so to be able to kind of give children that language around no, My body's mine.
And even things like, um, the early warning signs, like recognizing the early warning signs of fear. That's so important because another session in one of our group, in the groups that we do is the early warning signs like work. Because again, when men have been Condition to push their emotions down over time.
The only emotions that they become aware of is happiness, sadness, and anger, really. So things, and even that [00:38:00] to its extreme version, not like the early warning signs. So in the actual program, we have like three different sessions. One, we cover the early warning signs of anxiety. So what does anxiety feel like in your body?
What are the triggers? , and actually Where do you feel it in your body? How does it feel like, and, you know, be able to then break the circuit and what do you need when you feel anxious? , so that's one session we do on anxiety. Another one that we do is on anger, the same thing, not just like from zero to 10, you know, but when you're at two or you're at three, what does that feel like?
What are the early warning signs in your body? What are your triggers? How can you, you know, break the circuit and, you know, not get to a 10. And then the third emotion that we do that is so huge is shame. Because shame is, oh, it's such a, even just the word when I say it to people, it's like a bit of a punch in your gut.
Like I always see people go, when I say shame, but I absolutely love shame in that. I love talking about it because I think if you can help people to heal from shame or at least start the journey of healing from shame, [00:39:00] it is huge. It's huge, honestly, because it's transformational. It is. And I've seen it.
It's like shame is what prevents people from making change. Shame is what keeps people stuck because shame is, you know, again, I do shame in a spectrum. So I have toxic shame on one end and I have guilt on one end. And I say in the middle, shame itself is just an emotion. It's neither good nor bad. It's a protective, it's a protective emotion.
For example, we'll say little Johnny, you know, he's jumping off the table repeatedly. So mom's going to go, stop it. Silly boy, blah, blah, blah. So he's going to feel a bit of shame. He's going to feel a bit of embarrassment, but then mom's going to come back like in a little bit, hopefully, and give him that hug and still show him that she loves him.
However, if little Johnny gets repeated,, told getting told off repeated, you know, messages that he's bad, but there's no repair that's happening after he goes from, I've done bad, which is the guilt side to I am bad, which is the toxic shame. And unfortunately, again, because of the age that people grew up in, You know, parents [00:40:00] were tired and whatever, like, you know, it was a constant messages of you're doing wrong, you're doing wrong, you're doing wrong.
So it goes from, I am doing bad to I am bad. So once you're in that toxic shame space, that's when you, you're like, well, what's the point of changing? I'm going to fuck up anyway. Right? Like everyone hates me. Like, this is just what I do. This is who I am. And I see that with men. So when you can help them to understand shame, unpack shame, you don't even understand like what I just told you, the origins sort of, of shame and then go, let's, how can we work towards, I've done, I am bad too.
I I've done bad. Cause then you can actually move forward. You can repair with the people around you or past repair. You can then make healthier choices with the people in your future or your children, you know. So I think shame is, for me, it's huge. It's like almost like the cornerstone of most of my work.
I would imagine. And interesting you bring it up because a few years ago, I remember having a conversation with my daughter and I, it was like a light bulb moment because she kept saying, I'm such a [00:41:00] bad kid on this and this and this, and it was around the 10 to 12 age group, you know, like that when they start being more, um, perceptive.
Like they've perceived their peers more and they're more worried about their peers, what their peers think than what you think. And one of the things I ended up saying to her is, is you're not about me. Sometimes your behavior is bad, but you as a person are not a bad person. You sometimes your behaviors are naughty, but you as a person is not naughty or whatever wording I use, that's really terrible language.
But I used to say you, the person are beautiful, intelligent, smart, happy, You know, fun, you know, all of these things and you, but sometimes we do bad things. So, um, you know, I just really love that you brought that up because pulling the behavior out, out away from the actual person, like all of us, all of us.
Except, except for a key group of people, a very small percentage of the population, [00:42:00] we are good people. We have, we, we love people, we care for people, we look after people and it's what we do that is the difference. Absolutely. And we can change what we do if we do the work. 100%. So, that, it's funny enough that you mentioned your daughter because the same thing happened to me with my son and that's kind of how the shame, I guess, um, thing was a light bulb for me as well.
So, one day, my son was 10, he's now 14, he was 10 at the time, he was just being silly in the morning and not putting on his socks and getting ready, so I was just like rushing a bit. I'm like, hurry up! It's pretty close on! And we just You know, jump into the car, driving to school and he's just crying. And so then I kind of pulled over and I said, are you okay?
He goes, you think I'm so bad. You think I'm an awful person. You think I'm blah, blah, blah. And so that's when I sort of like pulled over and I was like, Wow. That sort of really hit me as his mom. And so then I had to sort of think on my feet and I went, put your hand up. And I said, give me four things that you're really good at.
So he was like, Oh, I'm good at gaming. [00:43:00] I'm funny. I'm kind. I'm good to my brother. And I was like, great. And now on your pinky is what I'm going to call your pinky jerk. That's when you're a bit of a jerk sometimes. So. When you're not listening to me or you're not getting dressed in the morning or you're hitting your brother, you're a bit of a pinky jerk, but being a pinky jerk doesn't remove or cancel the other four things that you are.
That's amazing about you. And, you know, so that was a bit of like a light bulb moment for me. And then I started doing sort of like my work around shame. And then, so when I, there's one particular session in the program where I get the men to sort of unpack their worst argument they've had with their partner or ex partner.
But before we do that argument, um, Unpacking. I'll get them to choose like four words that are good about them, similar to my son. And then I'll say, and on the pinky, and I sort of, I kind of joke about on the pinky, you're a pinky jerk. So, you know, you're coming from that is this unsafe choices, unsafe means mean hurtful things when you're a bit of a pinky jerk.
Similar to my son, you know, so it gets them, it's a bit of a joke, but I also think sometimes [00:44:00] when you're dealing with such intense topics like shame, having a bit of a joke and sort of presenting it in a lighter space can sometimes also diffuse it. And then, you know, but then also the message is that you can still be, uh, like a good son.
You can still be a good. Partner most of the time, or you could still be a good dad or a good worker or whatever it is. But then on the other finger, you are a bit of a jerk when you're doing all of these behaviors or more than a jerk, whatever, you know, but those are the behaviors that you can change.
And that's where change comes from. That's your humanity. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Well, and like, I keep referring back to myself, but the other day I had a moment where I was just being an absolute asshole. Like I was in a foul mood and I was angry and I don't know what was going on. I was probably. You know, I'm perimenopausal and all of the work and I just didn't want to be nice to anyone in my family.
So I just, you know, I snapped at them a couple of times. And then because we have that, we have the language [00:45:00] in place, like we put it in place. Right. I just was like, I am sorry. I don't know what the hell's going on. I'm going to isolate myself from everyone so that I do not take this shit out on you.
Please don't take it. Um, please don't take it personally because I have no idea what the fuck is wrong today. And, and like my family were like, yeah, you're being an asshole. And I was like, I know, see you later. I'm going to go and do something that makes me happy. Right. Yeah. I think that's healthy because we, because in my growing up, My, my ma, my step mom, my dad, they would have just kept nit, nit, nit, nit picking, nagging, and then it would have blown up into a big argument, and that's what I was modelled.
But I did want to get back to So the men you work with, they, some of them are court ordered. Some of them are, um, you know, come voluntarily. What is something, or what is something you can leave listeners with? Because do you know, like in my [00:46:00] experience dealing with domestic violence and, and, and going to domestic violence call outs and stuff like that.
People don't, people are good. Inherently there's people who are hurting and they are struggling and they do things that when, when we're hurt and we struggle, we, we are in survival mode. We're taking it out. Like, like I did the other day, taking it out on everyone else. Because for some reason everything's too much that day or that week or that month or that year, but what do you think if someone's going through something right now, what is something you can leave them with right now?
Um, or maybe like just something usable or they can use within their family to, to have that conversation or start that conversation. I know that coming to see you would be really beneficial, but you know, what kind of unsafe behaviors do you think? They should be watching out for. I've asked 20 questions in one sentence, but yeah.
So, you know, I think if it's, if I'm talking to a man, like who [00:47:00] might be watching this podcast, or even a partner that wants her husband or partner to do the work, I think for men, from what I've seen is that, um, it's like the subtle invitations, right? So things like, there's some amazing books out there.
There's amazing authors out there. So, I mean, there's, um, There's a guy called Matt Brown from New Zealand. , he's, he's written a book and he, he's got even a Ted talk and podcast. It's called She's Not Your Rehab. Oh my God. I watch him on TikTok. Yeah, he's brilliant. Like I absolutely love his work. So She's Not Your Rehab.
There's another man called Lewis Howe. He's in America. He's an ex football player. Again, he talks about like all the masks of masculinity and how men, because he's also an 80s, 90s baby, about how men were. Trained to have these different masks, whether it's the Joker mask, the Know-it-all mask, the sporting mask, you know, uh, the sexual like genius mask, you know, all of that sort of stuff.
So he talks to men about removing those masks and being [00:48:00] vulnerable and showing your vulnerability. So I think. Uh, yeah, so Lewis Howe, Matt Brown, Gabor Mate, who does his work around trauma is amazing. And I think just, you know, if you feel like your behaviors are not resonating with your core values or your behaviors aren't resonating with who you are or what you want it to be, I think starting off the journey is just.
Education, you know, just starting to look at some of those more positive people, not staying away from people like the Andrew Tate staying away from Jordan Peterson and more engaging in conversations with even, um, there's another guy, Justin Baldoni, who's written a book called boys will be boys. So, you know, those kinds of authors that are writing men that are writing for men and that are writing, um, information that is healthy.
And it's about that. Owning your stuff. I think that would be the first step. And if you're not a big reader, there's audibles, there's, you know, YouTube, there's podcasts, there's TikTok, lots of stuff. So I [00:49:00] think just invite the men in your life to start to explore that. Um, and then I guess, If you're the partner, like if you're the woman, it's you having to be a bit vulnerable yourself and saying our relationship isn't like where it should be.
And that's you being vulnerable and modeling vulnerability to them and then inviting them to kind of consider, you know, uh, behavior change or consider even looking at these podcasts or these books or whatever it is. So I think as the partner, all you can do is model the behaviors that you want. From your other partner.
So modeling vulnerability, modeling acceptance, modeling, love, modeling, compassion, empathy, also modeling the star phrase, modeling, um, Assertiveness, you know, modeling boundaries, it's all you can do. So I always say to the men, we can't because sometimes you'll have men in a group that's like, well, my partner should be in this room, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I always say, well, um, well, yeah, well, I can't really speak to your partner or her behaviors because she's not in this room and it's not fair to talk about her. But what I [00:50:00] want to talk about in this room is you. Because human beings, we are all patterns. We're a sum of patterns. So I can guarantee you that if you break up with Jane, you're going to have a Jane point two, Jane point three, Jane point four, Jane point five.
We've all seen it, haven't we? They rebound into the next relationship with the next person is exactly the same or that same problems. Because ultimately we've all, we're, like you said, we're all a sum of a total of patterns and we pick the same patterns. If we don't change us. Exactly. So it's, you know, it's about, so even with your partners, right?
Like, so if you want your partner to do the work, you do your work as well. And, you know, start to model behaviors because there'll be stuff that you can also take accountability for, even if it's only like 10 percent or 5 percent do that. And then, you know, model that. And then your partner can either meet you.
And where this new changes are, or then you've got that decision to make where you've got to go. Am I going to stay with this person or not, you know, and that's the choice that only you can make, but it's about you leveling up and then your partner can meet you there, or [00:51:00] you've got choices from that leveling up as well.
Yeah, I definitely don't, um, I definitely wouldn't recommend, like, I, we're not here telling people what to do in their relationships or, or whether to stay with it in a relationship or not. We're here just going like, these are the things that you can do. And I know that in my 27 years with my husband, um, it was quite interesting.
We, I started seeing, therapy in my 20s, early 20s, around 21. And I started couples counseling around the same time with my husband in our early marriage. Like we, we got married really young and, and I think that is our saving grace. I don't think we'd be married today without counseling, without seeing, um, psychologists, without, and then when I got to.
We actually had a separation for a period because when I was a police officer and my husband and I were not coping and it was, it was like a decision, my decision to like, have a break separate. And my husband didn't [00:52:00] cope very well because. Ultimately, he went from home with his family to me, and so we had that really, back then I would say, very co dependent relationship.
We're much more mature and much more, um, dependent now. Independent, not dependent. Um, but, and, but he had to go and, he went away and did work. He went away and saw psychologists himself, counselling, he went and worked on himself. He, he took some time to reflect. And without that, I don't think we'd be together today.
So, you know, it's really taking responsibility and reflection is so important. And I, like, again, like I, in my work with men, I actually never tell them to leave their partner. In fact, like it's, you know, the 101 of like men's behavior changes that you can't ever suggest. You know, leave your partner. But all I say is you do your work, you take responsibility for your behaviors, and then you will level up.
And then with that leveling up will come choices. And then, you know, you can choose [00:53:00] to then engage in couples counseling, or you can choose to take a break or whatever it is. But then that's coming from an educated, informed choice. It's not a knee jerk reaction. You know, I think in society nowadays, we've become quite a disposable society when things don't work.
We just like chuck it, like your phones, your clothes, you know, relationships. Relationships. Exactly. So it is about that idea of making, you know, especially there's children involved, that informed choice. So working on yourself, leveling up and then making that like life changing decision, if it needs to be made with that, all your choices.
And it's like an informed choice that you've got to have, you know, so that way you can walk away at the day going, I've done everything. Yeah. Everything I can, I can hold my head high, you know. And ultimately at the end of the day, Um, if you do the work and you heal yourself over whatever you need to heal and you reflect and you take responsibility, you're actually healing your children and you're helping them grow up in a much better, um, world, you know, [00:54:00] have better relationships themselves.
I know that You know, if we all did the work, I've often reflected on this conversation where if we all did the work and healed and became responsible for our own behaviors, and we said the sorry's the real sorry's and we, we modeled all of that behavior, how much better will our children's relationships be as they, as they get to that relationship age?
And, and this podcast is all about child abuse prevention and education. You being in a, you know, you having that, um, unhealthy, unsafe relationship is more . Yes. , you know, it doesn't ultimately end in your children having that relationship, but it has the potentiality to create, long term generational problems, you know, yeah, it's and it's that it's that idea that, , You know, yes, your children might not have those same sort of relationship that's abusive.
However, what they might do to cope with living in that family unit at that time as a child, it's setting them up like, [00:55:00] so stress and trauma can actually impact your genetics. That's a proven fact, right? So like there's long term studies that show like chronic stress Where your adrenal glands and core zones are so high that those, those are the things that cause like long term diseases, like heart disease, cancers, you know, , high blood pressure, cholesterol, all of that sort of stuff.
So, you know, yes, your children might not end up in an abusive relationship, but they might be quite prone to stress because you have children that grow up in unhealthy or abusive relationships. And you'll have one of two things. You'll have the child that's hypervigilant. So they're the ones that are like always tracking everyone in the room and they're tracking.
Yeah. Same. And you can like literally feel the air temperature drop by just people's behaviors. You can read because you're hypervigilant or you'll have the child that's hypovigilant where they're shut down and they're the perfectionist child and they're only concerned about their self worth and like self preservation.
So the ones that are perfectionist, you know, they're almost like the cutthroat CEOs that only want to win, win, win. Because for them, And only caring about [00:56:00] themselves is what keeps them safe. Whereas the hyper vigilant person is sort of taught to keep yourself safe by tracking your surroundings, you know, so yeah.
Yeah. All of that. And, you know, so again, those hyper vigilant, hyper vigilant people do tend to be quite also quite,, charismatic. They can be quite high achievers, but again, And that constant chronic stress they're living with long term is going to end up with, you know, like your long term conditions, like physical conditions, heart conditions, even mental health conditions, all rheumatoid arthritis, , autoimmune conditions, all of that.
So I think, you know, as a parent, um, something that I guess when my son was born,, And I was a young mom at the time was like a decision that I promised that I made myself is that I want his world to be different is that I wanted to make sure that the world that he grew up in. It was a different world to like what I grew up in and that he wasn't, you know, and I've tried to the best of my ability.
And so. [00:57:00] I think that's all parents, you know, something that we know our children, my children deserve to have the best version of their parents, both mom and dad. I agree. And, and a lot of parents, you know, when they take that little baby home, they're thinking, I just want to, I want to protect this baby. I want to make sure that this baby has everything, you know, And what then life gets in the way, right?
We don't start out with our babies and our children with the whole purpose of ruining their lives. Or, you know, we don't go, we're going to fuck this kid up because we can't fucking regulate our shit when we have problems and we've got trauma. We don't think that, but it's, but ultimately if we don't go and work, if we don't first identify what's going on with us, we don't.
Identify those needs. We don't work on them. We don't voice them and do the work. Then we're going to have that effect. It's going to have that flow on effect to our children. We will build, we will bleed onto our children. So, yeah, so the work you're doing is. So, so freaking important. [00:58:00] Um, so Alison, I just wanted to ask my last question.
Anyone who listens to this podcast knows that I asked this question of everyone. I think I forgot to ask it once before, cause I was so like wrapped up in what we were talking about, but I think, um, I know what you'll say. So if there was one thing that you want parents to know about the work you do and what advice you give to these families and these men, what would that be?
You know, I actually had this brilliant idea in my head at the start when you sort of, you know, prompted me about it. I was like, oh, that's going to sound amazing. And now you can't remember. Yeah, my ADHD brain is like, it's gone. Um, so, , I guess, you know, what I would want parents to know or sort of be mindful about.
There's so many things, but I guess just the power of, , like Matt Brown talks about the power of showing up, power of showing up for yourself and showing up for your children and being vulnerable and, and saying what you'll do and, you know, and actually working on yourself. So showing up for yourself is like, you know, loving [00:59:00] yourself as a parent, loving yourself, holding your values to your heart and ensuring that the life you live is beautiful.
In line with your values and then showing up for your children. So when you say you'll do something, when you have those promises that you followed through with them, if you have wishes and dreams for them, that you. Try and help them achieve that to the best of their ability. So I guess the power of showing up, um, is something that.
I've recently, like, I mean, I guess that concept I've known about it, but the actual wording of the power of showing up was something that I recently got from reading Matt's book and I absolutely love. So yeah, I think that the power of showing up for yourself and the power of showing up for your children.
Yeah. Oh, that is. And it's powerful that showing up and being present and actually, you know, even that, like the term, the power of showing up for yourself, like you are worthy. Everyone is worthy of. You know, feeling then having their needs met everyone's worthy of feeling love and [01:00:00] and connecting with others and having a full fulfilling life, you know, because because you showed up and you and you and you did the work that you needed to do to ensure that you Uh, showing up for yourself and I, I used to question my policing, like, you know, I was doing all this shift work and I was always away or I felt like I was always away.
I was always showing up for other people and not for my family. That's what I thought, right? But I showed up when I had to show up. And when I left the police, I did actually have a big meltdown. I was like, Oh, I wasn't there for you for the last 10 years. And my daughter was like, I don't remember you not being there.
And I was like, okay, all right, I'll stop feeling guilty about that now. Um, because she didn't notice because I showed up where, when I had to, and also when it mattered. And, and also, uh, I also feel that showing up for yourself and showing your kids that it's okay to make yourself a priority and work on yourself.[01:01:00]
It models that for the future for them for when they need to do it for themselves. Need to show up for themselves. Absolutely. Because like we talked about right at the start of this is that men, a lot of the stuff comes from their idea that they can't have needs or they're not worthy of needs. So, you know, it's this whole different dynamic, different narrative that we're sort of proposing and changing and hoping that, you know, people Inviting people to start doing the work and showing up for themselves.
That's amazing. Alison. Now tell people how they can find you and where they can find you. Um, so, um, sag, so it's www sag agency, so the word s the word agency wa.com au. Um, Instagram SAG agency WA Facebook, but I'm not very, like, I'm not a massive. Social media person? Social media person. I'm trying to be, but um, I think because of my work, I've always been quite private because of the work I do.
Previously it was with,, guys that was directly from criminal court. So they were mandated. So I had to keep a [01:02:00] level of privacy, but I guess now that I'm, you know, the director of this agency, I've got to sort of start being open. So I'm trying, so. But definitely check out your website because there's some information on there about your therapies and about your,, how you can work with.
With your agency. So,, like, yeah, I do,, I do check Instagram more than Facebook. So if you want to find me on Instagram, send me a message or connect or whatever, I'm always happy to have those conversations. If I can't help you, I can point in the direction of someone that can. Yeah. No, amazing Allison.
Thank you so much for such an awesome conversation. I love these conversations and I love the fact that there is a, , there is a therapy center like yourself in, in our community because there needs to be more of it because we're all humans. We all make mistakes. We all need to learn and we need to be supported as we do it.
So thank you so much for what you do. Thank you so much for having me./
