S2 Ep3 Jen Hoey - Not my kid
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[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the CAPE podcast. CAPE standing for the Child Abuse Prevention and Education podcast. My name is Christy McVie and I am an ex West Australian police officer who spent 10 years with the police where I was trained as a specialist child interviewer and a child abuse detective. This podcast is all about sharing what I learned, saw and knew whilst investigating child sexual abuse in the police force.
It is also about sharing the knowledge that I gained in that time that helped me with my own parenting of my then two year old daughter. My mission is to help share my knowledge and to help you in your role as parents to keep your kids safe along with guest experts in the field of child abuse prevention and education, both in person and online.
Thank you so much for joining in on the fight to prevent child sexual abuse. Your kids will thank you for it.
I'm with the wonderful Jen Hoey this week, um, in regards to talking about [00:01:00] child abuse prevention and education. And I'm really pleased to be talking with Jen this week. She's actually a friend of mine. After we met at a conference in, oh, when was it?
April, I think? Um, when we went, both went to the Task Force Argos conference. It was the youth technology virtual communities conference. In the Gold Coast, and that's where we met and had a conversation and have been friends ever since, uh, because the beautiful Jen has an amazing story about turning something very scary into, uh, education and empowering parents around their children's online usage.
So I'll let Jen explain all of that, but I just so much, Jen, for being on the podcast today. Oh, it's an absolute pleasure, Christy. It's lovely to be here. I know. And it's taken us a while to get us together as, as busy parents and life gets in the way. So Jen, um, I don't want to be the one to tell everyone your story.
Cause I really [00:02:00] believe in everyone telling their own story. So tell, , our listeners, you know, where, what you're doing, what, how it all came about and, , yeah, what you're doing now. Well, it's, , it started 11 years ago. My daughter was nine at the time. And without my knowing, she was exposed to a predator online via an online game.
Um, it took her two years to find the courage to disclose to us what had happened and during this time, we literally lost her. We, she, she was diagnosed with clinical depression. She was medicated. She had severe separation anxiety. And all because this. Predator had threatened her and she was convinced that the police would come and arrest her.
Now, as crazy as that sounds, children actually do take things at face value and if they are threatened, they believe it. Um, she found the courage to tell me, but it [00:03:00] took a number of more years for her to fully recover. And I'd say that that recovery really, um, what, what assisted in that recovery was my.
Writing her story down at that point. I think she was 16. She was able to see herself as the child that she was. She was able to see herself as a survivor and she ultimately gave me permission to share her story publicly. And so what I did in order to cope was I got educated. I, I, I've enrolled in a degree in criminology.
I followed cyber safety experts like yourself, and I read peer reviewed journals, um, books, listen to podcasts, sometimes set up at 2am to listen to an InHope webinar, but I really wanted to understand the risks that parents face. Um, and when my son started primary school in 2019, I was [00:04:00] really concerned with how many of his peers were allowed.
Pretty much unsupervised access online and rather than being that parent in the playground, didn't want to be the parent who lectures others, um, I decided to start a group, a Facebook group, which I called Not My Kid. So why call it that? Well, because this is the standard line that I hear from parents.
This will never happen to my child. My child's mature. I've had the conversations, but, um, you know, it happened to mine. I was vigilant and I'd have to say it can happen to any child. Oh my God, Jen. It really does happen to any child and can happen to any child. It doesn't just, it's not just some abstract idea that it happens to other people's kids that can happen to your kid.
And I know that from experience from when I was a police officer and investigating, I know that from experience from all of the people who contact me now. [00:05:00] So yeah. So you were that super protective mom who was trying to do everything can still your daughter got caught out. What about your story that really, uh, probably gets me the most is that your daughter spent two years.
Stuck in this, probably this absolutely pure terror space, trying to work out how to deal with this on her own at nine. That's something that still keeps me awake at night. I mean, if I could turn back the clock, I know one of the things I didn't do, which I've now done with my now 10 year old son is I, I didn't talk enough about protective behavior education to her.
And that's so fundamental for parents to understand. Um, I, I, I feel like maybe. If I had explained to her the difference between a safe and an unsafe secret, now early warning signs, maybe she would have found the courage to come and tell me something sooner. You know, I hadn't had [00:06:00] enough of those conversations.
You don't know what you don't know either, like you don't know and you're 1000 percent right that the protective behaviors and online safety, they go hand in hand together. They are. One without one, you can't have the other vice versa. Exactly. A hundred percent. Um, and, and that's why I would say that probably at least every week I talked to my 10 year old about, um, some aspect of either protective behavior or online safety, because I don't believe this should be a single conversation.
We have to continuously remind our children. And the more we talk about things that even we are uncomfortable with, um, the more likely it is that they'll come to us. Yeah, I 100 percent agree with that. So we've talked about porn, we've talked about predators, we've talked about, you know, cyber bullying, um, and children in year four at the moment are pretty nasty to each other, I have to say, from some of the things he's telling me.
Oh, they are. Yeah, it seems like, [00:07:00] I don't know whether it's because parents are a little less, like, I don't know about your generation or where you grew up and where I grew up, my parents were quite handoff. So I don't really believe my parents were the, they were probably the normal parent for Australia in the 80s and 90s, but they weren't the, you know, there's definitely different stories out there, but I feel like, um, there's a different type of parenting now.
Whereas we're, we're not as connected with our. Our children's friends and families, we're not as connected with our neighbors. We're not as connected with other people. So we don't feel like we can step in when there's problems. I don't know. Yeah. And it gets worse when they get to high school. Um, you know, and when I think one thing I've noticed with my, with my little boy is that play dates have fallen away.
Children are gaming, so they're connecting online, whereas my son isn't allowed to game. Yeah. So, you know, we do have a couple of friends who are sporty and like to be outdoors like [00:08:00] us, but, um, they're in the minority at the moment, which is really sad considering he's only 10. Yeah, I agree with you and it's something that my own teenagers said to me because she wasn't allowed social media until she was in high school and when she did get social media, I mean, she had some games, but they weren't connected to others.
Like, we'll talk more about your advice in a little bit, but, you know, she wasn't allowed to like. Online game in multiplayer games. Right? So she would only be able to play a game where it was just her doing something in a game. Um, and what I found is, is that she has, , she didn't have the same connection to other students.
So she found she was felt like she wasn't really part of All the groups because they were on Tik TOK or they were on Snapchat or they were, you know, gaming and, um, but she did say to me earlier this year, she goes, I'm actually grateful for that because I didn't have all of the drama either, and I didn't have all the problems.
And my older children have thanked me too. [00:09:00] You know, I also had, there was delayed access to certain apps. Um, my daughter still does not have Snapchat and she's 19. Yeah. She's not missing anything. No, it's her choice. But, um, yeah. You know, I also think she got a big fright with what had happened to her. Um, and so, you know, essentially, you know, what happened to her was the, the predator was asking her to role play sex acts within the game.
And, I don't know what went on in the chat, but, um, One of the things he said to her, and she thought she was talking to another nine year old little girl was that if she told anyone, they would both go to jail. So she was feeling responsible, not only for herself, but for the other so called child as well.
In many ways, and this is quite hard to, to, to say out loud, but. [00:10:00] In many ways, I'm almost grateful that he threatened her because she was in the process of being groomed. Predators use pornography as a form of desensitizing children. So I don't know where it could have gone if he actually threatened her.
So, but I do regret, um, and I feel really sad at how many years she spent. Afraid and alone. And when she did tell me, she couldn't tell me, she actually scribbled words on a piece of paper. She was so ashamed. That poor baby. And this is what predators do. They, they make sure children feel a sense of responsibility.
Yes. Um, and that's why I'm on a mission to educate parents about preventing online child sexual exploitation, because we, if we don't know, then we can't know what to do, we need to be educated. So as [00:11:00] much as the topic is a distasteful for many, if we are the parent, we have to step forward and understand what the problem is.
Yeah. Yeah, we, we really do. And I mean, it doesn't make sense to me and I don't know about you Jen, but you know, obviously you're a bit like me in that as soon as you knew you went and educated yourself to the point of like more than what most parents would do because you are so knowledgeable in this space now, um, since all of this has happened and, and you've really gone above and beyond what the average parent would do in this space.
Yeah. But, and I'm the same, like, you know, I sit on those webinars, I go and listen to people, I go and watch documentaries. Sometimes I want to, like, step away from this, but at the same time, I'm on a mission too. And, and the reason why we're on missions is because we know the damage it does. You saw it in your own daughter.
So after two years, when she finally [00:12:00] told you and, and you're talking about her, she was obviously completely scared. She felt shame. She felt guilt. She probably was blaming herself. How did it come about that you knew it was a, a, a, like an adult male who was grooming her or attempting to groom her? What, what was the process?
Did, was the, um, The thought that came through or the question that came through for me is when he threatened her, is that when she stopped contact with him or what happened? Yes, that's right. And then at that point she started to suffer. Um, I should say that just to rewind a little, the one thing parents, Um, should be mindful of as their reaction when, when their child does make a disclosure.
Yeah. Because, you know, I could see that my daughter was so terrified of making this disclosure. She honestly felt the police were going to come and knock the door down. Yeah. And that doesn't happen, guys. Like anyone listening, your children are victims and no police officer will ever, [00:13:00] Um, you know, unfortunately there's some uneducated and, and not so compassionate police officers out there, but if, but, you know, most police officers know that the child is the victim and that they're not going to, they're certainly not going to drag them away and arrest them.
Exactly, exactly. But. I knew that in that moment I could see how afraid she was so I knew that my response had to be completely calm. And in fact, I just sat down and put my arms around her. And that was when she was able to tell me a little bit more. She. That night she didn't want to hear that I suspected it was an adult.
Um, but then the next morning I did call the police, the local police, and I just asked them if they had a list on their website of games that predators are known to frequent. At that stage I didn't know as much as I do now. And they said, They asked me, in fact, I was incredibly lucky because that local policeman was [00:14:00] empathetic and gave me the time.
He asked me why I was calling. He asked me if my daughter wanted to come in and make a report. Um, and then he said to me that predators are on anywhere. There's a child on line. They are predators. And then he gave me a message from my daughter where he said to her, said that, um, this is predatory behavior.
So a predator will threaten the child and, and sometimes leave them too afraid to say anything. So in a sense, in answer to your question, He confirmed for me that this, this was a predator and judging by her response over those two years, I mean, we literally lost her. She gave up everything she enjoyed.
She stopped eating. She became listless. I mean, she was an energetic, happy child who loved dancing, loved gymnastics. You could not walk away from her without a smile on your face. She was just full of life. And that [00:15:00] literally overnight changed. I don't believe another child does that to another child. I think something was going on in the chat and she wasn't, her memory, when I wrote the story, she was able to tell me the game she'd been playing, which was Fresh Hotel.
Um, And she was able to tell me where the incident incidents took place. That's another thing. She was ashamed that she went back and continued to this, this person. Um, and she, she was able to tell me how deeply responsible she felt. Um, and ashamed. And she was a nine year old girl. Like, this is the thing that we need to get is that our kids.
Take on so much responsibility for their actions at this age. And, and, um, I doubt Jen that you even would have blamed her for that, but they take it on without even us saying anything. Exactly. That's exactly right. And I think she was really surprised that night when I just gave her a big hug. She looked at me and said, [00:16:00] why are you not angry with me?
I did the one thing you've told me not to do. I went on a chat. And I said to her, because you were a little girl, you're curious, you're no different to any other nine year old little girl. Um, you know. And I mean, I get emotional still when I talk about it cause it's so hard. I can remember it like yesterday, but, um, you know, I, I, I just said to her, you are completely innocent, but that takes, you did it so good.
You did it so well, Jen, like you have no idea how many parents who, or how many children out there don't hear those words. So what a, what a beautiful, you did so good Jen, like, I hope you know that you did an amazing job with your daughter at that point. I think it helped her in her recovery. For sure.
Yeah, and I think the police message helped in her recovery. Because when I, when I told her that I'd called the police, She, yeah, [00:17:00] she's sort of crying. I would imagine she would have, yeah. And I said to her, no, this is what they want me to tell you. And when she just heard that message, something silently filtered in for her.
And I think it gave her a sense of comfort that the police, that the people that she thought were coming to arrest her. That poor little thing. She saw she was innocent. That little girl. And like, I can just imagine, you know, she, she had held onto that stress and that fear for so long. And then all of a sudden, no wonder she was listless.
No wonder she was struggling. Absolutely. Exactly. And, you know, I had taken her, gosh, it was, so she was in year four and a couple of, and I'd noticed this dramatic change and her teacher called me one day, said, you need to come and Because she's, she's inconsolable. And when I arrived at the school, the teacher said to me that [00:18:00] she had told her that everyone in the world has a red warm heart, but hers is cold and blue.
And that these, those are words I won't ever forget. Um, because. It indicated for me how incredibly distressed she was, but at that time, I still did not know what had happened. It took 18 months before I could find out we took her to a psychologist. Um, but it took 18 more months before she found the courage.
And I think what the trigger was, was that at the start of year six, the school sends out a note asking permission to, for students to participate in sex education interrelate in New South Wales. And I think that was a trigger because she kept saying, I don't want to do that class. I don't want to do that class.
And I was like, you know, we've had often, we've had lots of conversations about sex, you know, what's, what's wrong. And then one night she called me into her room and the word first, first thing she said to [00:19:00] me was, mommy, I've done something terrible. And it's, it's, it's, that breaks my heart because there's so many children in this world who have been manipulated and coerced online and they think they're responsible.
Yeah, I know. How are we, how are we getting it so wrong if our kids think that. That's right. We're getting it wrong if our kids believe that they're the ones, you know, they're children. Yes, we talk to them until we're blue in the face. Yes, we, we, um, you know, some of us do, some of us don't. Some of us don't even have a conversation with our kids.
But, you know, the, the thing is, is that we've got to, We've got to stop and realize that children are not adults and they don't have the cognitive, you know, they don't have the brain development, they don't have the knowledge, they don't have the wisdom, they don't have, they trust so easily. Absolutely. You know, we've got to stop and realize that as a child, we [00:20:00] didn't have these risks on our safety that we do when we give our child a device.
No, and we have parents who, who, um, I mean, we have so many rules in place around, you know, playgrounds, you know, and the safety measures that in order to build a playground, you need a lot of safety measures in place. But yet we throw our children devices. Well, I don't. My son. It was not allowed on anything.
Um, and, and I've explained to him why. So I think this is important. I think when you put in, uh, in, um, a boundary. Yeah. You need to explain why the boundary is there. Um, because he understands that I'm protecting him. Yeah, I mean, they might not agree with it and they might not like it, but, and they might feel like they're being left out, but I don't know any child, like, I've felt all those things, no matter what, you know, we didn't have phones when I was growing up, but I still felt those things because I wasn't allowed to go to this party or I wasn't allowed to go to this [00:21:00] thing, or I wasn't allowed to have the newest Nike shoes or I wasn't, you know, whatever it was back in my day, you know, so it doesn't matter what, you know, Generation you're coming from, you've all felt it.
It's, it's just, you know, there, and you know, I wasn't allowed to go to this party because there was going to be boys there. So my parents were like, no, that was a protective behavior and a boundary that my parents put in place or, or, you know, whatever. So I think. We've got to stop and realize that it is our job.
We, we gave birth to these little people and we brought them into the world and it is our duty until they turn 18 at least to ensure that their safety, ensure that we can help them grow into safe, healthy adults where possible. You know, it doesn't stop things, bad, bad things happening, but we do our best.
Yeah, absolutely. And, and that's where we have to, we have too many parents who are wanting to be their child's friend who don't, don't want to upset their children with my children. I say to them, if my [00:22:00] son says to me, and we always have a habit of naming emotions in our house. So if he says, well, I'm feeling really angry right now, I'll say that's okay, that's a healthy emotion, that's an emotion, so that's okay, you know.
I know you don't like what I've said, but, um, I, you know, obviously I'm aware of the fact that he's 10 now and he's very compliant and when he's 14. That'll be different. You want to check back in with me. Yeah, when you're having a 14 year old chuck tantrums, it's a lot different to a 10 year old chucking tantrums.
I can tell you that. Absolutely. Um. But I've been through the older children. So. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you've seen it all. It's just I guess, you know, like, to give yourself a little break as well and I'm sure you've been through everything with regards to what happened with your daughter. You know, like, you don't know what you don't know.
And when you know better, you can do better. Like, that's my, that's my. Motto in life. Right. You know, my parents, I can be upset and hurt that my parents did certain things when I was growing up, but they didn't [00:23:00] know any better, you know, if they had have known better and not done better than I could be really mad and upset and hurt by that.
But when you, when, when you know better, you can do better. And as parents, I think we need to just. Sit back and go, okay, I know better. So how am I going to do this better with our kids? We're trying to undo all of that trauma. We're trying to protect them. We're trying to do our best. That's all we can continue to do.
Um, I just wanted to bring up, so you said you've created a group called not my kid. And you wrote a book. So let's talk about those two things. So I've got a copy of Jen's book here. It's called a regular story that rarely gets told. Um, and it's such a cute, cute is not the right word. Um, it's a very short little story, uh, about, um, what happened with her and her daughter and, um, and how it all came about.
Right. So, um, Yeah, it takes very, it's a very short story, but it is such a regular story. And it's a regular story that rarely gets told. We rarely talk about this stuff. [00:24:00] Yeah. Was that the purpose behind this book? Absolutely. You know, we, we, when we talk to parents and obviously I also offer, um, cyber safety consultations for parents, um, when you talk to parents, they, they always, you know, Seemed to imagine the worst case scenario and, and as a result, they don't believe that this will ever happen to their children in a million years.
I mean, it's just ignore the fact that the statistics say, I said, you say otherwise, really, but, um, so I thought. Actually, the intention of writing the story was actually just for me personally, initially, because I was struggling and I wanted it just on paper. Um, but then a couple of friends read it and they said, look, this, this is really an important message.
And so I started sharing it anonymously. Online. And then my daughter gave [00:25:00] me permission to go public and that was a big step for her. Yeah. You know, we don't share the same last name, but it still was a big step for her to say it's okay. And she, in fact, When she gave me permission who I'll never forget what she said, she said, mommy, you need to be my voice.
You need to tell other parents how easily this can happen to their children. Um, And it, you know, I've got my, I'd say my older two children are my biggest advocates in many ways, you know, they, they're really fantastic. Yeah, they understand they're watching their little brother and keeping him in line as well.
Yeah. And I think also I'd be advocating because. You advocated for them when they couldn't, you know? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, I haven't touched on what I've gone through with my oldest son, but you know, I've gone through sexting incidents, cyber bullying. Um, and so, you know, I've kind of, personally experienced some of the things that [00:26:00] I really don't want other parents to experience.
No, no. And I guess, you know, even in my case, my daughter hasn't had been through what you've been through, but, you know, she has seen others, other friends, peers, um, you know, she's also, you know, had, you know, some bullying, you know, and I, and I've made all the mistakes, you know, like with my daughter saying porn for the first time at 10, you know, I've, you know, her having, you know, letting her do things that are probably looking back now.
And what I know now wouldn't let her do shouldn't let her do, you know, like I've learned those lessons myself as well. And the thing is, is like, when you know better, you can do better. And you have those conversations, you talk about it over, you know, more than once, even at 16, nearly 16, I still talk about it.
Online safety, uh, you know, more than, um, once my daughter's come to me and gone, I think this is a predator because, you know, we talk about grooming behavior. We talk about love bombing. We talk about, um, Suspicious people [00:27:00] online and what they, how they act, you know, and the thing is, is with the knowledge that we both have, I think.
You would agree that you can actually pick them out pretty easily, but when you're a little child, you don't. No, there's no way. And in fact, I was telling my little boy the other night about predators, you know, um, it was just a very short conversation, but he said, Oh no, no, no mommy. Predators cannot pretend to be children because they can't change their voices to be little And I said, but sweetheart, they don't actually need to, they can just type.
They learn very quickly how children type. I mean, I didn't go into the voice changing thing, but I actually showed him an image of myself that I'd actually changed, uh, to make myself look, I don't know, 25 years younger. Yeah, I did that too, yeah. You know, and, and he was really, I think sometimes though, that, that visual.
Is, is, is more, uh, is more able to comprehend, yes, what I'm talking about. So, yeah. And young people don't realize how, like their, their hearts are so [00:28:00] pure. Little, little people, their hearts are so pure. They're very rarely, you know, That they've, you know, we did say at the start, you know, year four kids are quite nasty to each other, but it's coming from a lack of understanding of what they're feeling and not being able to verbalize it.
That sort of stuff in the school yard and maybe not having the supports in place and maybe adults going, just ignore it, just ignore it. All of that stuff. That's generally why our kids are struggling. Um, but you know, the thing that kids don't get is why would someone want to do that? Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
Exactly. Why would someone want to do that to me or to someone else, you know, and that's not for them to understand because we don't want them to understand that we want them to just know that people do do it. And, um, you know, and this is why we, we've got these things in place so that they don't get caught or they don't, you know, in that net.
And the other thing you said was that you've got a group called Not My Kids. So, Tell me more. What, where's the name come from? [00:29:00] Cause you did say that it was because everyone says not my kid. That's right. Yeah. So I just, okay. I'm going to just put it out there.
It's just, it's, I suppose it's actually the one line that makes me the most angry because it's, it's comes from such a place of.
Um, and because, I mean, my son in year four is probably the only child who's not online gaming in the, in the boy with the boys. Um, I don't know how many of the girls are, but I'm sure some of them are probably a lot because girls are trying to be, you know, Like it's not that they're not interested in gaming because my daughter is a big gamer now But um, and she just generally plays with her friends and and people she knows but I think girls It's just the way our children are starting to to interact together.
It's not yes, and that worries me Oh, it is. It's very it's a very scary world. And I think I don't know. I really hope that we'll revert, [00:30:00] like parents will wake up and they'll go, maybe this isn't the easy babysitter that we need. You know, I'm not saying it and don't get me wrong. Like I've, I've admitted this in a previous podcast.
I was the first person to get my daughter a freaking iPad at three. I, if I could change anything that I did, that would be one of them. Right. You know, she was three years old and we were traveling. We used to live 1600 kilometers from Perth. So we used to drive a lot and I used to load that iPad up with videos and she'd be sitting there with that iPad from three.
So if I could change anything, that would be one of them. Um, and, um, But, you know, like, we don't think about the potential consequences, and I know teachers, especially early childhood teachers, are saying they're getting kids come to school with less than, you know, without verbal. They're nearly non verbal because they're not having that interaction with people to learn how to speak.
Yeah. And, you know. One of the things we're seeing in, my husband's a psychiatrist and [00:31:00] I manage his practice. We're seeing more and more and more referrals for teenagers seeking a diagnosis of ADHD. But when he questions them about their average bedtime, it's between two and 3am. So as he said to me, sleep deprivation mimics symptoms of ADHD.
So we're medicating all these children. Because they're sleep deprived or because they genuinely have this condition. And, and, you know, that's a problem. And we, we see a lot of, um, gaming disorder in our, in our, um, in our practice.
I'd say more of the psychiatric issues relating when it comes to girls relate to social media misuse. Um, boys with boys, it's gaming. So, are you okay to keep, uh, talk about that a little bit because what kind of, what are they, like, this is really interesting because the fact that your husband's [00:32:00] a psychiatrist, you're seeing both sides, you've had, you've been through all of this.
Now, your husband's a psychiatrist saying this in his practice. So, and I know that you're obviously not the psychiatrist in the family, but, um, you know, you could probably explain a little bit for parents to understand what kind of gaming addiction and. What are some of the, the impacts that the social media and gaming addiction are having?
I'd say for girls it's a lot of self-harm. And, and, and in some cases there's suicidal ideation. So they are either feeling very left out or they're not feeling attractive enough. They've sometimes developed an eating disorder, um, with boys, uh, the gaming dis, the gaming disorder issue. What we see is we see 16, 17 year old.
Uh, mum can't cope, school refusal, sleep has been completely, uh, flipped, in other words, sitting up all night, sleeping all [00:33:00] day, refuses to go to school. Some cases we've had a couple of patients whose parents have had to take an AVO out against their child and they've tried to turn off the Wi Fi or confiscate the gaming console.
There's an explosion. Yeah, yes. I think that everything is okay in moderation. Yeah. But we also have to bear in mind that we need to be able to start as we mean to go on. So in other words, that's why I'm such a firm believer in delaying because once we do start, we have to still have strong groups.
Exactly. That's right. So if we allowed TikTok and 11 and then we decided 13 that it's not okay, that's going to be very difficult to change. Yeah, yeah, that would be my one advice as well is that you know, really think hard and, and do your homework before you allow [00:34:00] one of these games or apps or, or think about, you know, what boundaries that you want, like you said, you know, because it's a slippery slope.
It really is, you know, um, I've been lucky with my daughter is that we've always had a firm sleep,, schedule,, since birth. And although she's, um, she's much older and, it's, uh, developmentally and it's, you know, biologically they, you know, sleep later, you know, but she's still even today, , on a weekend we'll go, Oh, I'm ready for bed at 11 o'clock and so like, I've been very lucky, uh, but, and I've been very firm with it and I've had conversations around sleep, why we need sleep, what happens when we don't have it, , again, in educating her and myself about it,, and what can happen and some of that stuff, you know, the sleep problems that you're talking about.
And the lack and not being able to have attention the next day. That's right. It's, [00:35:00] it's mimicking ADHD or, or some sort of,, disorder. Well, you can't focus when you've had a lack of sleep. No, I know. I, I was a police officer for 10 years. I don't think I slept properly for 10 years. And, and I still don't sleep properly now.
Um, so, I know what it's like when you don't sleep enough. Yeah, well, I also have some sleep difficulties. Well, mine's now perimenopause, so yay! Um, but you know, like, and our young people also, , they're not getting enough sunlight to be able to, you know, all of those hormones and those, , you know, dopamine, all of that stuff that they require.
They need to be out in the sun, they need to be moving, they need to have all of these things. I guess for any parent listening, if you've got young kids, please, please, please consider all these things. And I think movement is so important. I think you've hit the nail on the head. I mean, you know, we really do need movement in order to feel well within themselves.
Trying to tell your teenagers that is a huge problem. Um, [00:36:00] it is, it is exactly. I mean, I just went out on, on Sunday afternoon with my son. We have a little basketball hoop and threw some, you know, hoops with him. , just to just. You know, keep him active and get moving, but I think it's really important that we do understand that activity is part of our mental wellbeing and are in a mental health crisis.
Yeah. Yeah. About that. Um, and how much of that has, I believe there's a significant amount of that that can maybe, uh, that I'm not saying that devices are the cause. But I'm saying that they do compound things for our teenagers. Yeah, and we're seeing, I'm sure you've heard this term before, we are seeing affluent neglect.
Absolutely. Yes. So, you know, for anyone who doesn't know what that means, do you want to explain that Jen? Well, it's when someone, when, when you, when we, for example, live in a high socioeconomic area, both parents work, but they throw [00:37:00] everything materialistically at their children, devices, um, private school fees.
They want the school to take over looking after the children really. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. you know, by the time the children are 18, they may well be driving a BMW. They've just had their peas. Um, and, and in fact, it's very interesting because, um, One night I was going home on the train after my, after watching my daughter in a dance performance, and there were two police officers on the train.
And one was really very, very, very, had loads of guns. I didn't know what the hell was going on. And my little boy looked terrified. So I thought, okay, this is the perfect moment to, um, let him know that the police are good people. So I said, good evening officers. And they were lovely. I mean, they had a great chat to us, but one of the things I said is, you know, how's your Friday night?
And they were like, no, we're just trawling the North shore line for the wannabe crims whose parents have neglected, who, who. [00:38:00] His parents are wealthy but neglected. Yes. These are the, these are the kids generally that, uh, have a car accident in their uh, their hotted up souped car because and, and kill themselves or their, their passengers because they've never had a parent actually take time to um, um, to worry about their well being and talk to them through risk and they're just allowed to do whatever it is that they want to do, whenever they want to do it, because their parents basically, like you said, throw everything at them and step back and stop parenting.
And, you know, and they're the types of kids that are doing drugs in, you know, before they're ready. Like, you know, they're the types of kids that are, um, you know, doing risky sexual acts and behaviors really early. They're the types of kids and not, I'm not saying that all kids, um, will do this. You know, you might have to, there's like, generally there's two types of kids.
There's the one that's doing everything [00:39:00] and risking everything. And then there's the other side that are basically bringing themselves up and decide that they're. You know, going to show their parents or that, you know, but there's no, their parents aren't present is what I'm trying to say, really. Exactly.
Exactly. And, um, I saw a lot of that when my older, when my son, who's now 21 was in high school, um, most of his friends were at private schools. Um, no one ever called to find out if their kid was, if it was okay for their kid to spend the night or if that was safe. Exactly. No, when you're coming home. Yeah.
And in fact, I insisted on getting parents phone numbers. And once I remember sending a text out saying, hi, you know, as we'll be responsible for your child, it would be great if you could just let us know that, you know, where they are. No, no response. I think I may had one parent who responded to that text message.
But, um, and some nights I had five kids staying the night. It's not also. And one thing I will say about affluent neglect, it's not actually just happening in high [00:40:00] socioeconomic. Um, no, that's right, areas and it, you know, it used to be much more common in that space. It's actually happening in middle and lower socioeconomic, um, because we have very busy, very traumatic, very stressful lives now.
I don't think we, you know, post COVID, I think COVID helped this along. Um, I don't think we actually really have, you know, It's taken a moment to just breathe and go, you know, like life's, you know, life's a lot stress, more stressful, especially with the pressure with finances and stuff like that. So parents haven't got the mental capacity right now.
Um, and so what happens is, is that they're disconnecting their family. Um, you know, I don't think we realize, you know, we used to all sit around and watch TV shows together. We used to all sit at a table and watch and eat dinner together. Um, you know, we used to go on family holidays together. We used to, you know, do, do things on a Friday night together with [00:41:00] our kids.
Um, and I think what's happening now and, um, is that we stopped doing those things with TVs in each bedroom, gaming consoles here, um, you know, All of those things that we've stopped doing because life got easier that seemed easier that way. And that's lacking. That's where our connection to our children is, is, you know, slowly being pulled apart.
That's right. That's right. Exactly. I mean, every school holiday, we make sure we go up the coast for 10 days and we go fishing. You know, we, we, we, we spend time. Um, as a family together, um, because admitted term time is busy. Yeah. Um, I wanted to, so, so you've got your group. Not my kid ever. Not my kid. No, it's not my kid.
Yeah. Yeah. Not my kid. Cause you're on, on Instagram. You're not my kid underscore ever. And I was like, no, because somebody else had not my kid. Damn it. Um, yeah. So you've, you've got a group now. If parents are interested in joining that group, um, is it open to all parents? [00:42:00] It's open to all parents and you can post anonymously in the group because I, yeah, I just, I just realized, um, and some parents just reach out to me privately, um, but, um, at least.
If they post anonymously, we've got a number of really highly qualified people within the group. Yeah. And you know, I can't remember if I am or not. I'll have to, I'll have to double check. Well, I want to be in the group now. Um, so we do have a lot of, , qualified people in the group. So yeah, you're welcome to join.
Um, I'm in a few groups with a few other people, like our wonderful friend Holly Anne and, , I mean her teachers educators group as well. So, you know, like there, there's so many of us who are out here supporting parents and families and wanting you guys to have the tools that you need to, to help your kids get through childhood as best you can.
Like we can't promise it, but we can try. , Before I ask you my final question, I just wanted to talk about, um, [00:43:00] your daughter, how is she going now? She's 19, like, obviously you mentioned that, you know, around 16, she sort of like some, some part of her brain clicked and she went, actually, I was the victim here.
I'm not a bad person. I was, you know, I think that helps that at around that age, the, some of the mental, sorry, some of the cognitive function and the development has, you know, Is starting to be completed in girls. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And she's fantastic now. I mean, she, um, she is back to her usual vibrant self.
She's back dancing. She's working. Um, and. Yeah. She's back to being the child that I once knew, but I can't say, I have to say that took time. Yeah. And that's what I want parents to remember that even something minor can leave a mark. Yeah. Absolutely. And she's been very [00:44:00] cautious ever since. So I think the lesson here is one of the lessons, I mean, you are a protective parent.
I think one of the lessons is, is that we need to make sure that we are having those conversations with our kids and we need to ensure, and you, it's not that you weren't, but we also need to ensure that if something happens, we don't just let our kids deal with it on their own because like you said, it takes time.
Absolutely. Yeah. And that's what I say to my son all the time now. I say to him, nothing can ever shock me. There's nothing you can tell me that will ever shock me. And if anything happens to any of your friends, I will help them. You know, I'm just like, Oh, please. I don't want any kids to ever feel that way.
No, but as a result, he was able to come and tell me, um, during the lockdown. We, my husband and I had to keep working and he went to school and he was able to come and tell me that two children in his class had been looking up private pictures online. I was able to address that with the school. [00:45:00] Um, and he, you know, he's been able to come forward to me with various other things that have happened.
I mean, the other day he asked me what the dark web was. I was like, why are you asking that? He was like, someone in my class says he wants to go on it. And I'm like, okay, good luck.
But we, we gave him a pretty honest answer. Yeah. But you know, kids are so curious. We've got to not forget how curious children are. He's one of the worst, one of the worst, one of the best. I don't know. We used to have encyclopedias, right? So if you wanted to look something up, you had to have a big book and you had to go through it.
Now we've got Google. That's right. Exactly. And that's the thing that we really must not forget. How curious our children are, which is why when my son comes to me, I give him a direct answer. I've given him a commitment that I'll give him the honest answer to any question he has, regardless of his, you know, it may not entirely be age appropriate, but you know, we had a whole conversation about human trafficking the other day.
Yeah, good on you. [00:46:00] Like, so good. I mean, I'm the same. I'm the same. People. Turn their nose up at me when I say, have you had a conversation about porn with your eight year old yet? And they're like, and I'm saying, you know, I'm not saying you have to go and say, well, pornography is where man, whatever. I'm saying, you know, they're private pictures that it might look like it might like look like two adults don't have clothes on and they might look like they're wrestling, you know, and, but it's not for children.
And then, you know, it can be as simple as that. Well, I've gone one step further. I've said to him in most of the cases, the man is hurting the woman. Well, in a lot of porn, um, unfortunately we see that. Well, that's the reality is that, that is what they'll stumble across. So, you know, and, and I've said, you know, it may shock you.
It, you know, it, you may be curious. But you must, you can always come and tell me, um, now as he gets older, I'm aware that that's at 10, he's still wanting to come to mummy, but at 13, 14 developmentally children [00:47:00] gravitate towards their peers. Yes. So that's when our job gets harder. Well, it does get harder, but interestingly, what I've seen with parents who have very close, very open conversations with their kids is they still come to their parents, but they end up coming to their parents with all their friends coming to them.
So their friends come to them and then they come to you and you're like, Oh, so then you're, I mean, my daughter at 13 had a sleepover with some friends and, um, I ended up talking about porn, um, and the, Like consent. And, and I was like, has anyone's parents actually talked about this with them? And they all were like blank faced.
And I was like, right, well, sorry guys. And I actually warned the parents later, everyone I've had to talk with your kids about consent and porn. Um, Well, because you know what, it came up and I was like, um, you know, I, I had to have, I was like, I'm not sending them home. I don't think it's fair. I don't think it's fair on the kids [00:48:00] to, to, um, to download that stuff onto them or, you know, offload that information, which was very important, very needed on information for them because I had no idea about some stuff they were like asking me misinformation, like heaps of misinformation.
And I was like, I'm not leaving you girls with this. Misinformation. I'm like, and you know, had that conversation with them. But then I went to the parents and said, just let letting you know, the conversation came up and I sat, I sat with them for over an hour and they were just ping ponging questions at me and I just answered them all.
I mean, um, you know, I would hope that, Um, their parents would be able to go back, but I don't reckon any of them went and had a conversation after that. They would have thought, Oh, great. Christie did it. And it's amazing how, um, I suppose the word ignorant comes to mind. I, I had someone in the, my, in the practice the other day, and this is, this is not about porn, but this is about sextortion.
And, um, You know, we got onto talking about what I was doing, my work. [00:49:00] And they looked at me when I raised the fact, cause they had to think it was a 14 year old son. And I was like, Oh, you know, you may want to talk to them about sextortion. This is, it's a pretty serious issue with boys of this age at this current time.
And they said, does that not only happen in the third world? And I was really taken aback. Um, and I said, no, No, it is, it is, it is a, it is a high risk for children of this age group, especially boys in Australia, Australia and worldwide. But I was really shocked at. Because it makes me wonder what am I reading?
I mean, I know I'm reading a lot more. I get the Google alerts that I'm checking every day and, but, um, maybe, I, I, I'm not sure why there's so many people where this, In edu where this information is kind of falling through the cracks. Yeah. I, I ask this question all the time, to [00:50:00] myself, I ponder it. I'm like, why are parents not knowing what I know?
What, why Doesn't everyone know what I know? But I think some people choose to be willfully ignorant. They willfully, I don't want to know. Um, some people it's. Too much for them in one big like, I'm like, let's go as deep as possible as far as possible because I want to know everything. You're the same, but you know, I think some people need it in like little bite sized chewable pieces.
So if it's too deep and too hard, they don't want to hear it because it's too hard. Too much all at once. Uh, I think there's too much information, even, you know, myself, I sat there on social media for hours yesterday. I had a very big social media day. And, um, I even was like overwhelmed by the end of the day.
And if people have that much. like information coming in and they just don't have the capacity to really hear and listen to any of it. That's, that's true. They can become numb. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that, that is, that is true. I think there isn't, there is an [00:51:00] overload of information. I actually only managed to go onto social media for about half an hour before I'm like, my head's exploding.
My six or seven hours yesterday probably would have killed you. Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, it would have, but, um, you know. And equally so talking about porn. I had a mother saying to me, I cannot even say that word. And. You know, I guess the reality is, is that this is, this is the world that our children are going to be exposed to.
It's not a question of, um, you know, if it's a question of when, and we need to, I think we need to actually buckle up. Yes. Grow up, get a thick skin. Yes. And educate ourselves. Get a thick skin and get over ourselves. Get over our, our, you know, trauma from our own parents and all the other shit that we have in the back of our heads that make us go, Oh, I don't want to talk about that.
I don't want to deal with that. When I first read my son, uh, book, it was called, where do I come [00:52:00] from? It was, it's about six when he was five. The first time I read it, I was like, Oh my God, do I have to actually read this?
And, and I've, and I've read it to him probably at least a hundred times since, but because it goes in all the detail, but, um, he was more interested in his own birth. At the end of the book, he was like, Oh, so, so when was I born and what time? And yeah, and how I've got to commend you, you were much, I, I did not have, know how to have these conversations with my daughter when, and it was, When she came to me and someone at school had told her what sex was.
And that's when, that's when I had a conversation with my daughter before that, she was interested, but to how much easier is it once you, if you start young, it's just normal, it's so much easier. It is really is so much easier. We just use the correct names. So our body parts, you know, um, and, and he came.
To me, and maybe this is too blunt for the podcast, but he said to me, you know, money, a friend of mine is arguing [00:53:00] that the penis goes in the bottom and I've said to him, it absolutely doesn't. I was like, well, yes, you know, when I've actually said that story on social media, some people have gone, well, you know, in some cases, you know, that may be the case.
That's not what we want our children at this age. We just want our children to know what sex is. Yeah. And I mean. I mean, if you haven't gone back and listened to the, the, the episode that I did on the podcast with, um, Vanessa, , go back and listen to it. Okay. I'll, if any listen. Yeah. Because she talks about how we can have, , you know, inclusive conversations around sex.
, because we, yes, we need to, and there's nothing wrong with your explanation at all. Um, but she explains, you know, that sex isn't just penis in vagina. Sex is the, you know, it can be oral sex. It can be, you know, touching. It can be a lot of things. And so I haven't done that. Yeah. Well, that's the next [00:54:00] conversations you're about to have.
So go listen to that podcast for anyone listening. If you haven't already and, and for you, Jen, um, because, because it's really important that we make. Because there's lots of components to a sexual experience. Absolutely. Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. Boy, right, he's 10. You've got to like, but you know, like he's going to be doing, uh, if he's in year five next year, he's going to be doing sex ed in school next year.
And, , you know, year five and six, I think they do, they start off with puberty and then they have sex ed in year six, which you're already covering anyway. But, , I've, I've admitted this before, but I actually sat down with my daughter at twelve, eleven, twelve, and watched the first season of Sex Education with her, and we, yeah, and I mean, going, I, I, we had such an open, honest conversations, we were talking about female masturbation and masturbation from eleven, and one of the things that I spoke with my daughter about was, You [00:55:00] can't let someone else touch your body if you don't know what you like first.
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, things that like breaking all those freaking stereotypes up and and challenging the fact that we we don't talk about like she actually says and I'll get her on the podcast one day. Um she actually said you know when she did her sex education at school they didn't talk about female masturbation at all.
They've talked about male ejaculation and um they talked about. Uh, you know, wet dreams and, you know, and penis going in vagina, but they didn't talk about female pleasure at all in her sex ed. And yeah, so that was something really, and I don't know if it's updated. I don't know. I know that Vanessa, if you go back and listen to her, she talks about it in her classes.
When she talks to students about all of that, she includes it. And she has beautiful terminology about, um, the, the vagina receives the, , Accepts the or receives the penis instead of saying the vagina is [00:56:00] forced or pushed or placed, you know, like changing the terminology around it and making it more about accepting it.
It's more consensual type language. Um, yeah. That's really good. I'm definitely going to listen to that. Um, so I will, Jen, I've got one last question for you. So the last question that I ask and, um, I'm sure my listeners are sick of me saying it like this, but when I was writing my book, sorry guys, you're going to have to listen to however I read it.
Wow. Thanks Jen. Um, when I was writing my book though, I just kept thinking if, if parents knew what I knew, they'd do things differently. That's all I could keep thinking. Hence why there's a book. And, um, what do you want parents to know about? So if someone asks you about your work or about what you've learned over the last 10 years, what do you want them to know?
What I'd like them to know is that they need to keep their conversations open and frequent with their children. And that needs to start at a young age. They also absolutely need [00:57:00] to keep devices out of bedrooms and bathrooms. Full stop. Because, um, most of the time when things go wrong, a child is alone, um, in the bedroom.
Um, I'd also encourage them to understand the games and apps that their children are using. Yeah. Because If you don't understand them, then it's very difficult to actually speak about the boundaries you want to put in place. Um, I had every single app that my children ever had, and I, I vetted it first, but we also have to bear in mind that, um, I suppose parental controls don't filter things like social media in any kind of robust manner and YouTube.
Okay. So I'd like to also caution parents about YouTube, but I'd say that [00:58:00] the most important things are the device use, where you're using, where's your child using their device and how many conversations are you having your children with, sorry, how many conversations are you having with your children about potentially what they could face online?
Yeah. Well, and. It's exactly that, it's just keeping your finger on the pulse, you know, don't just, it's not a one and done. No. And, um, what was I going to say now? Gosh, there was one other thing I wanted to say. It's gone out of my head. That's okay. Um, yeah, you just, you just, everything you just said then is like, keep having conversations.
Keep talking to your kids, check everything out before you let them have it. Don't trust parental controls. Like don't trust that they're that once you put them on, then it's done and, and everything will be safe because they're not. And unfortunately our [00:59:00] kids. They get, they are smarter than us online, they are digital natives.
They know exactly what they're doing. And I mean, you've seen it in your practice and you've seen it in your, probably in your counseling or families, you know, kids, uh, if there's a will, there's a way, and we've got to try and, um, try and, you know, educate them, keep them curious, but do it in a way that's safe.
Absolutely. I, I absolutely agree. And, and, you know, I think that, um, children actually crave boundaries. We, we don't realize that they may push against them, but that's what children are supposed to do. Yeah. It's funny you say that because my daughter, oh gosh, she is like, she actually does have ADHD. Um, she, her, my husband and her, uh, yeah, she has, she has ADHD and she, she loves, she loves, you know, routine, but she fights it.
[01:00:00] It's like, it's like a, that defiance against, like, she loves having her routines and, and being in a routine and having those boundaries, but she'll fight it if I'm the one instigating it, or like, she'll push back against me. She won't push back against my husband. He just has to say, come on. And she's like, okay, daddy.
And I'm like, Oh, That's because it's mummy. And it's because she knows that you're the closest to her. Yeah. They're pushing, they push the hardest against the person they're closest to. Oh, it kills me every week, every day. Um, I agree. Thank you so much, Jen, for what a wonderful conversation we've had. And, um, where can people find you if they want to grab a copy of your book?
Is it still printing? It is still printing, still available. Um, it's also free for download on, um, my website, which is not my kid. com. au. Otherwise on Facebook, not my kid, or as you said, Instagram, not my kid underscore ever. Yeah, cool. So people definitely go and follow Jen. She [01:01:00] shares lots and lots of information.
Very, very helpful information. I guess, you know, you've, You've come out the other side of an extremely traumatic experience, which could have been so much worse, but thankfully it wasn't. I think there's a lot of parents out there who have had something similar happen and they have had worse happen, but regardless of what they've experienced.
You know, everyone's experience, it's still, it still requires love, compassion, understanding and your daughter and your family are so lucky to have you Jen, because you've given everything since to, to keep your, not only your family safe, but other people's families safe. Thank you. And that was the last thing I wanted to say to parents.
Remind your children that you, they can come to you with anything. And that you will help them and you will love them. I think that that is so important because children, when they are experienced, have faced a situation, [01:02:00] um, online and they don't know what to do, they often feel so terribly alone. So if we can just reinforce that they can come to us.
And that's why I say to my son regularly, nothing can shock me. He knows what I do. So obviously he understands that, but I think it's important to reiterate that to your children. Beautiful point to finish out our chat with, but thank you so much, Jen. And I, and I'm really grateful for you. Thank you, Christy.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you for listening to this podcast episode. Education empowers children and empowers parents and education prevents abuse. That is why I'm here and that is why you are here. So thank you. If you want any further information or support, follow me on social media, either under Christy McVie or KAU social media accounts.
Kristi: I'll put the links in the show notes. You can also purchase a copy of my book Operation Kids Safe via the [01:03:00] [email protected]. Also, on my website is a free ebook titled 10 Tips to Keep Your Kids Safe from Abuse. and self paced courses for parents to help you in your journey of child abuse prevention.
Please see the show notes for any extra information, links and help should you be looking for extra support. Thank you once again for giving a shit about preventing child sexual abuse. See you next time.
